Birth of Jesus - Christmas

[Dutch Uncle]

The Bible reported on what was happening in the ancient world.
Slavery,murder,rape,every kind of crime is in the Old Testament is reported,that doesn't mean it was condoned.

According to the Bible, God ordered a lot of those slaves and murders.

 

[Margot]

I don't think free will is superceded by destiny. Alexander the Great may have had an intrinsic desire to rule the known world and to spread Hellenic culture to the far corners. He doesn't seem destined to have just played it safe and just enjoyed court life in Macedon.

But he still had to choose to take the massive risk of declaring war on the Persian Empire, and convince his Greek and Macedonian aristocratic peers to follow him.

It certainly seems some force has the right people in the right place at the right time. And visa versa.

 

[Margot]

According to the Bible, God ordered a lot of those slaves and murders.

Ordered might not be the right word,or it might, The Physical universe has an order to it. But when you move on through to the other side,things get much more complicated , there's so much more going on,then even the most enlightened has had revealed. I've had an enormous amount revealed to me. But it's probably .001% of 1% .
YHWH truly moves in mysterious ways.

 

[Daylight63]

Give me the names of the scientists who can adequately explain at the level of neurological biology and chemistry what set Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill apart from their equivalently educated social peers in terms of capability, vision, and destiny.

I'm just saying you vastly underplay the actual amount of stuff out there that really gets into the heart of this stuff.

The brain's state that maps to our thoughts and feelings and actions are becoming very well known and understood. The implications are astounding.

And the science is VERY real and has been going on for many decades now.

 

[Daylight63]

Possibly, but we don't know that.

We might need an entirely new scientific discipline for consciousness. Something we haven't conceived of yet.

Have you read any of the stuff in neurobiology? Gazzaniga has a good book out that really lays it out in an approachable manner that even non-readers can enjoy. It isn't too long (so you won't dislike it) and it's really pretty neat stuff.

It appears that the science we have right now does a fantastic job of explaining a lot of what is going on upstairs.

 

[Daylight63]

I can't answer for God,

Correct. But for some reason you posited God changed the weather in Russia to aid the Allies. I assume you must have had some REASON for suggesting that. I'm merely asking how that reason can be used to explain other things God might have done but clearly chose not to.

 

[Daylight63]

At that time 1789 slavery had been common for thousands of years. It's to bad The founding fathers could eliminate it then and there,but it was already wide spread in the Southern colonies

....and often shored up and defended by reliance on the Bible by those Southerners.

 

[Margot]

Correct. But for some reason you posited God changed the weather in Russia to aid the Allies. I assume you must have had some REASON for suggesting that. I'm merely asking how that reason can be used to explain other things God might have done but clearly chose not to.

Like I said,that was square one of my Epiphany! It showed me like the cover of " The Godfather" ,someone was pulling the strings.

 

[Daylight63]

The Bible reported on what was happening in the ancient world.

Exodus 21:20-21​

“When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment, for the slave is the owner’s property."

That isn't just reporting. That's condoning AND giving guidance on how much less valuable a slave's life was.

How about

1Peter 2: 18-20
"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only those who are good and gentle but also those who are dishonest. 19 For it is a commendable thing if, being aware of God, a person endures pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do good and suffer for it, this is a commendable thing before God."


That's not "just reporting".

Slavery,murder,rape,every kind of crime is in the Old Testament is reported,that doesn't mean it was condoned.

Oh much of that was VERY MUCH CONDONED.

Have you not read 1Sam15:3 wherein God, through his prophet Samuel, commanded Saul to commit a GENOCIDE on the Amalekites, he was supposed to murder INFANTS and OLD WOMEN. When Saul FAILED to murderize EVERYONE God turned his back on Saul.

The list of times when the Israelites were told by God he was going to help them slaughter the inhabitants of Canaanite towns is TOO LONG TO LIST HERE.

Please. Read the Bible before talking about it.

 

[Daylight63]

Like I said,that was square one of my Epiphany! It showed me like the cover of " The Godfather" ,someone was pulling the strings.

And we are back to the possibility that you simply imagined that God altered the weather in Russia to halt the Germans but he didn't reach in and stop Hitler from murdering millions of Jews AND CATHOLICS AND JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AND ROMANI AND ....

 

[Margot]

Exodus 21:20-21​

“When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment, for the slave is the owner’s property."

That isn't just reporting. That's condoning AND giving guidance on how much less valuable a slave's life was.

How about

1Peter 2: 18-20
"Slaves, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only those who are good and gentle but also those who are dishonest. 19 For it is a commendable thing if, being aware of God, a person endures pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do good and suffer for it, this is a commendable thing before God."


That's not "just reporting".


Oh much of that was VERY MUCH CONDONED.

Have you not read 1Sam15:3 wherein God, through his prophet Samuel, commanded Saul to commit a GENOCIDE on the Amalekites, he was supposed to murder INFANTS and OLD WOMEN. When Saul FAILED to murderize EVERYONE God turned his back on Saul.

The list of times when the Israelites were told by God he was going to help them slaughter the inhabitants of Canaanite towns is TOO LONG TO LIST HERE.

Please. Read the Bible before talking about it.

That's the way of the World back then. How can this be condoned? This was pre-Jesus,pre-salvation from the blood of the Cross.
Each and every human at that time were "SLAVES" of their sins.

 

[Daylight63]

That's the way of the World back then. How can this be condoned? This was pre-Jesus,pre-salvation from the blood of the Cross.

BUT IT MUST HAVE BEEN FINE WITH GOD SINCE THESE ARE HIS RULES.

If slavery is only wrong because it's after 32AD then I'm afraid that moral system is SEVERELY lacking. Severely.

Each and every human at that time were "SLAVES" of their sins.

That's a facile dodge well beneath you. You and I both know that is NOT what is being referenced, especially in the OT citations.

 

[Margot]

BUT IT MUST HAVE BEEN FINE WITH GOD SINCE THESE ARE HIS RULES.

If slavery is only wrong because it's after 32AD then I'm afraid that moral system is SEVERELY lacking. Severely.



That's a facile dodge well beneath you. You and I both know that is NOT what is being referenced, especially in the OT citations.

Not a dodge at all, it's exactly the situation before the Cross.

 

[Diogenes]

 

[IBDaMann]

wait....I forgot. You aren't on here to discuss. You are on here to....for lack of a better word: troll.

Obvious projection.

 

[Cypress]

Have you read any of the stuff in neurobiology? Gazzaniga has a good book out that really lays it out in an approachable manner that even non-readers can enjoy. It isn't too long (so you won't dislike it) and it's really pretty neat stuff.

It appears that the science we have right now does a fantastic job of explaining a lot of what is going on upstairs.

We can map out how neurons behave electrochemical my when stimulated by our senses, but no one has an adequate explanation how these are actually nturned into the subjective nature of thought and subjective mental experiences.

That is precisely why no one on this thread can point me to legitimate scientists who can explain at the level of neurochemistry what sets apart Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill from their social peers in terms of their motivation, vision, ability, and drive.

 

[Daylight63]

We can map out how neurons behave electrochemical my when stimulated by our senses, but no one has an adequate explanation how these are actually nturned into the subjective nature of thought and subjective mental experiences.

That is precisely why no one on this thread can point me to legitimate scientists who can explain at the level of neurochemistry what sets apart Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill from their social peers in terms of their motivation, vision, ability, and drive.

I believe we have discussed this very point numerous times yet you never seem to acknowledge it.

You cannot understand the concept of "wetness" at the atomic level. It simply doesn't EXIST there. Yet you and I both would agree that wetness is a real state.

I am uncertain why you demand of "mental states" that which may not exist. You certainly don't deny that something can be "wet" despite the complete and utter inability of anyone to show you wetness at an atomic level.

This is where your point fails.

 

[Cypress]

I believe we have discussed this very point numerous times yet you never seem to acknowledge it.

You cannot understand the concept of "wetness" at the atomic level. It simply doesn't EXIST there. Yet you and I both would agree that wetness is a real state.

I am uncertain why you demand of "mental states" that which may not exist. You certainly don't deny that something can be "wet" despite the complete and utter inability of anyone to show you wetness at an atomic level.

This is where your point fails.

So, no actual explanation of how electrochemical impulses between atoms get turned into subjective mental thoughts, experiences, images.

 

[Daylight63]

So, no actual explanation of how electrochemical impulses between atoms get turned into subjective mental thoughts, experiences, images.

Why do you consistently ignore the point I just raised? I kept it short because I know your dislike of reading anything too long, but I'm curious why this point NEVER seems to register.

Do you think 'wetness' is a concept that can be detected at the atomic level?

 

[Cypress]

Why do you consistently ignore the point I just raised? I kept it short because I know your dislike of reading anything too long, but I'm curious why this point NEVER seems to register.

Do you think 'wetness' is a concept that can be detected at the atomic level?

The issue I raised is that we don't know enough about conciousness and subjective psychological experience to explain the men and women of great historical fate and destiny - what sets them apart from 99.9999999 percent of their social peers

Nothing anybody has written here is an explanation for that. Wetness doesn't tell me anything about the vision, motivation, and drive of Alexander the Great