Nuclear power issue

[Damocles]

Couldn't the same argument be made against coal and coal mining?

Is there any energy that is completely safe?

Dunno... Here's a few of those...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE62I20Q

* August 1990 - BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA - 180 coal miners are killed after a gas explosion causes the main pit shaft to cave in at a colliery in Dobrnja, near Tuzla.

* April 1991 - CHINA - A gas explosion kills 147 coal miners at the Sanjiao River mine in Shanxi province in northern China.

* March 2000 - UKRAINE - At least 80 miners are killed in a methane gas explosion at Barakova coal mine in Luhansk -- the country's worst mining disaster since independence in 1991.

* October 2004 - CHINA - The Daping mine in Henan province explodes, killing 148.

* November 2004 - CHINA - A gas explosion tears through the state-owned Chenjiashan Coalmine in Shaanxi province; 166 miners are killed and more than 120 escape.

* February 2005 - CHINA - A gas explosion at the Sunjiawan colliery of state-owned Fuxin Coal Industry Group kills 214.

* November 2005 - CHINA - A gas explosion kills 169 people at state-owned Dongfeng coal mine in Heilongjiang province.

* September 2006 - INDIA - Fifty miners are killed after the roof of a coal mine collapses following an explosion in the eastern state of Jharkhand.

* September 2006 - KAZAKHSTAN - At least 41 people are killed after an underground explosion at Mittal's Lenin mine.

* March 2007 - RUSSIA - Blast rips through Siberian coal mine, killing at least 110 people.

* May 2007 - RUSSIA - Thirty-eight miners are killed in a methane explosion at the Yubileynaya mine in Siberia.

* September 2007 - CHINA - Coal mine shaft floods in the eastern province of Shandong, killing 181 miners.

* November 2007 - UKRAINE - A methane explosion rips through a mine, killing at least 100 miners.

* September 2008 - CHINA - A mudslide caused by the collapse of a mine waste reservoir in northern China kills 254.

* November 2009 - CHINA - A gas explosion at a coal mine in northeast China kills 104.

 

[Cypress]

I'm not a nuclear engineer, and have no particular expertise or intimate knowledge of how nuclear waste can be handled, so I'll leave that aspect to experts, or to message board posters who read two paragraphs about it on wikipedia and have decided to weigh in with expertise.

that said....

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama's announcement Tuesday of loan guarantees for nuclear power plants may encourage new construction...

Not having read the entire thread, I'm sure there's been outrage and alarm raised by rightwingers who routinely remind us that the federal government has no constitutional authority to spend, or use taxpayers to take the risk that private investors themselves should take on. Good luck Taichi dealing with the rightwing outrage on extra-constitutional activities by the Feds. I know buried somewhere in this thread is a wingnut rant about the enumerated powers in the constituion.

 

[cawacko]

I'm not a nuclear engineer, and have no particular expertise or intimate knowledge of how nuclear waste can be handled, so I'll leave that aspect to experts, or to message board posters who read two paragraphs about it on wikipedia and have decided to weigh in with expertise.

that said....



Not having read the entire thread, I'm sure there's been outrage and alarm raised by rightwingers who routinely remind us that the federal government has no constitutional authority to spend, or use taxpayers to take the risk that private investors themselves should take on. Good luck Taichi dealing with the rightwing outrage on extra-constitutional activities by the Feds. I know buried somewhere in this thread is a wingnut rant about the enumerated powers in the constituion.

Actually you missed a pretty good thread. Mott works in the industry, is a Democrat and is a fan of nuclear power. I have very limited knowledge on the subject so I have no idea if Mott is accurate and Taichi is wrong but that is what Mott is saying in the thread. Worth a read because energy is obviously a huge issue and it doesn't necessarily divide evenly down party lines.

 

[Minister of Truth]

Jeezus, China! Do you really have to suck that much at coal mining?!!?

 

[Taichiliberal]

Setting aside the fact that nuclear power is one of the safest and cleanest forms of energy, and ignoring the fact that coal and oil energy production results in far more accidental deaths and much more environmental/health related issues to the general public.... what do you propose we do about the man you elected president, authorizing the construction of new nuclear power plants? Can the GOP now count on your support in 2012, or is it still too soon to tell?

1) I suggest you read Christie's thread and due a little research regarding Nuclear plant spills, etc., and the effects on the surrounding environment Oh, and maybe you should look into the alarming rate increase of certain cancers after the Three Mile Island incident.

2) Why the hell would I vote for a return to Shrubism if I decide not to vote for Obama? 3rd party, anyone?

 

[Taichiliberal]

Taichi just wants to starve americans of the energy they need.

Oh stop acting silly and join the discussion like a rational adult!

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
All "Star Wars" references aside (*sqaaawk--bidip-beep-boop!*)Exactly what is Japan selling to France? And how does this cryptic statement of yours answers any of the questions I put forth? Seriously, there's a LOT of stuff about nuke power plants that doesn't get a lot of serious press when people discuss this issue.

It was simply dry sarcasm, Japan pays France to take their nuclear waste. We could too.

Man, just that concept is FUBB (f***ed up beyond belief).

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Overlooking your generalized, off topic accusation....do you have ANY answers to the questions I put forth above? Do you have sufficient knowledge of the subject to address said questions?

is this your method of avoiding answering truthful allegations? sidestepping it to press for an answer thats not necessary?

So you don't have any answers to the questions I put forth. Next time just say so and spare me your BS.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

1) I suggest you read Christie's thread and due a little research regarding Nuclear plant spills, etc., and the effects on the surrounding environment Oh, and maybe you should look into the alarming rate increase of certain cancers after the Three Mile Island incident.

2) Why the hell would I vote for a return to Shrubism if I decide not to vote for Obama? 3rd party, anyone?

1.) Actually, I did read Christie's thread, and I have done research... Per capita, accidents and deaths in nuclear energy production are FAR lower than oil and mining industry accidents and deaths. Are the number of cancers attributable to Three Mile Island comparable to the number of Black Lung deaths in America?

2.) I just wanted clarification you aren't voting for Obama... if you wish to throw your vote away on a 3rd party candidate, that is fine with me! I applaud your integrity!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Actually you missed a pretty good thread. Mott works in the industry, is a Democrat and is a fan of nuclear power. I have very limited knowledge on the subject so I have no idea if Mott is accurate and Taichi is wrong but that is what Mott is saying in the thread. Worth a read because energy is obviously a huge issue and it doesn't necessarily divide evenly down party lines.

I don't work in the nuclear industry I work in the hazardous waste industry so I am familiar, to some extent, with waste treatment standards for the Nuclear industry. The technology for treating the waste and managing it safely is available but obtaining permits to treat, store and dispose of nuclear waste is nigh unto impossible. Just as no one wants a hazardous waste treatment facility in their back yard, that goes treble or more for nuclear waste.

Safety and security are huge issues with nuclear energy that should not be down played less we become complacent and most nuclear incidents have been a result of complacency.

Having said that, the track record for both safety and security in the US has been excellent. Given that record and the available technology to safely and cost affectively manage the extremely dangerous by products of nuclear energy I am for developing its use. I think it will play a vital role in achieving energy independence that is safe and clean.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
I am definitely against nuclear power plants....and Obama IMHO is NOT doing the smart thing with his revamping the construction for these things. I will always thank God that former Mayor Mario Cuomo put the kibosh on the Shoreham nuke plant here on Long Island all those years ago...because the last thing we needed was a ramped up version of the Indian Point nuke plant in our backyard.

Here's just one of the negative views being bandied about regarding this issue:

Obama's nuclear power push faces obstacle: Waste

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama's announcement Tuesday of loan guarantees for nuclear power plants may encourage new construction, but a problem still remains that has plagued atomic energy for decades: what to do with nuclear waste?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/02/...wer/index.html

What rational reason do you have for opposing nuclear power plants?

The argument about the hazardous waste generated is a bogus argument. Affective treatment of HLW and LLW by High Temperature Vitrification and deep well injection has been a proven solution for over 20 years. The reasons the technology is not being applied is political and not real. HLW and LLW are accumulationg at some sites simply because State agencies, under political pressure, will simply not issue permits to treat the waste with existing BADT. So you're basing your argument on a false premis.

Not quite....

Nuclear Waste Problems of Japan

http://homepage3.nifty.com/ksueda/waste0108.html

And here's a list of accidents that spans 20 years and then some

http://archive.greenpeace.org/comms/nukes/chernob/rep02.html

 

[Mott the Hoople]

1) I suggest you read Christie's thread and due a little research regarding Nuclear plant spills, etc., and the effects on the surrounding environment Oh, and maybe you should look into the alarming rate increase of certain cancers after the Three Mile Island incident.

2) Why the hell would I vote for a return to Shrubism if I decide not to vote for Obama? 3rd party, anyone?

and I would suggest you do the same with coal mining operations, coal burning power plants and petroleum refineries. No one is saying that nuclear energy is completely safe but in the US it has a far better track record than either coal or petroleum. Though to be fair to those industries, nuclear energy does not have their scope or scale of operations.

One thing is for certain. If nuclear energy is to be advanced, given the catastrophic consequences of a mismanaging the technology, it is not something you'd want to place in the hand of a free market ideologue. It would have to be highly regulated to assure safety and security. With those controls in place, I don't see why we wouldn't advance the technology.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Not quite....

Nuclear Waste Problems of Japan

http://homepage3.nifty.com/ksueda/waste0108.html

Dude, that's a 10 year old report written by an anti-nuclear activist. The objectivity is, to say the least, questionable.

But to address the issue of vitrification and deep well technology. I all ready stated that Japan's geology was not appropriate for deep well technology. As for cooling of the vitrified monoliths. The solution for that problem was resolved about 15 years ago.

How do you think the keep the core of a reactor from melting into a puddle of slag from the heat? Simple, they surround it with graphite. Well same think here, The vitrified monoliths are encapsulated in graphite.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Dude, that's a 10 year old report written by an anti-nuclear activist. The objectivity is, to say the least, questionable.

That's Chicklet's standard for journalistic integrity! If you read his posts, they are all like that... he trots out some lame ass propagandist talking point memo, and acts like it was some sort of legitimate news story that "proves" his lame ass point! Then he struts around insulting people for a while, acting as if he has "won" some argument with his lame ass propaganda.

 

[Taichiliberal]

You're uninformed. France applies HTV treatment standards to both HLW and LLW.

See my answers to you regarding HLW and LLW and the HTV treatment.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I don't know what Watermakr means by "passive deactivation". But to answer your question some HLW has isotopes with half lifes in the tens of thousands of years. It will essentially never be "safe" from a human time frame/perspective. However, just because it's not safe doesn't mean it cannot be managed safetly. Sheilding is the key solution and what better sourch of sheilding then the earths crust?

This is why HTV and deep well injection are considered the BADT (Best available developed technology) for handling HLW and LLW. The vitrification process creates a monolight that eliminates the toxicity characteristics of the waste. When the monoliths are given a lead sheild and placed miles under the earth into a granite deep well mine then health and human safety are protected by the miles of granite shielding.

So it appears to me that your not up to speed on treatment technologies and standards for managing nuclear waste.

See my answer to you regarding HTV.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I suppose that I have fewer fears of nuclear power because I have a cousin who works at the South Texas Project. We talk about the dangers/lack therof all the time.

Read some of my links regarding accidents, and the problems with HTV.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Couldn't the same argument be made against coal and coal mining?

Is there any energy that is completely safe?

Coal mining pollution of water and air is one thing....but radioactive contamination is a whole other smoke.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I'm not a nuclear engineer, and have no particular expertise or intimate knowledge of how nuclear waste can be handled, so I'll leave that aspect to experts, or to message board posters who read two paragraphs about it on wikipedia and have decided to weigh in with expertise.

that said....

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama's announcement Tuesday of loan guarantees for nuclear power plants may encourage new construction...

Not having read the entire thread, I'm sure there's been outrage and alarm raised by rightwingers who routinely remind us that the federal government has no constitutional authority to spend, or use taxpayers to take the risk that private investors themselves should take on. Good luck Taichi dealing with the rightwing outrage on extra-constitutional activities by the Feds. I know buried somewhere in this thread is a wingnut rant about the enumerated powers in the constituion.

Excellent point! But that can of worms hasn't even been addressed....people are still arguing that since there hasn't been any MAJOR accidents, nuke power is safe, safe safe. But, as I and others point out, the devil is in the details.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Dude, that's a 10 year old report written by an anti-nuclear activist. The objectivity is, to say the least, questionable.

But to address the issue of vitrification and deep well technology. I all ready stated that Japan's geology was not appropriate for deep well technology. As for cooling of the vitrified monoliths. The solution for that problem was resolved about 15 years ago.

How do you think the keep the core of a reactor from melting into a puddle of slag from the heat? Simple, they surround it with graphite. Well same think here, The vitrified monoliths are encapsulated in graphite.

You may question the objectivity, but you cannot refute the facts...or claim that it's been resolved. And let's not forget that essentially you cannot guarantee stable geology in the US for the length of time that HLW/LLW will remain deadly/damaging or that containment has been "solved".

http://www.beyondnuclear.org/radioactive-waste/?currentPage=2