God is not intelligent, or, why I am a pantheist

[Bai Lan]

If you understood the thread, Fredo, you would know.

It depends. There are kids in shit hole nations happily playing in mud puddles because they don't know any better. The main reason for the Arab Spring was Internet Cafes which provided a window to the world. They saw what they had and what others had so they wanted something better. In Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths deal with desire and wanting. A person can't want what they don't know exists. The whole concept behind "ignorance is bliss".

there's nothing wrong with playing in a mud puddle.
I'm talking about all the violence and crime.

I think people know it's not ideal.

just like people know up from down even if a white man didn't show them.

your theories border on all kinds of racism.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

there's nothing wrong with playing in a mud puddle.
I'm talking about all the violence and crime.

I think people know it's not ideal.

Violence has always existed among human beings. For one thing, it's part of nature. For another, humans are just really intelligent animals. Intelligent, but still animals. Some more animal than others. Crime is a legal definition. Killing, raping and stealing have existed long before there were laws.

In order to know they have to learn there is something better. Consider why some men prefer virgin wives. A virgin doesn't know how lousy the sex is with her man. The only way she'd know is to have something to compare it to, meaning having sex with a variety of men. Wanting requires knowledge that other options exist.

 

[Bai Lan]

Violence has always existed among human beings. For one thing, it's part of nature. For another, humans are just really intelligent animals. Intelligent, but still animals. Some more animal than others. Crime is a legal definition. Killing, raping and stealing have existed long before there were laws.

In order to know they have to learn there is something better. Consider why some men prefer virgin wives. A virgin doesn't know how lousy the sex is with her man. The only way she'd know is to have something to compare it to, meaning having sex with a variety of men. Wanting requires knowledge of that other things exist.

but there has always been places where violence would not be acceptable, even with in "violent" societies.

peace is also part of nature.

it's like you missed the whole thread.

morality is cooperation and peace and is rational.

your faux moral superiority over the "non whites" is imerialist and repulsive.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

but there has always been places where violence would not be acceptable, even with in "violent" societies.

peace is also part of nature.

it's like you missed the whole thread.

morality is cooperation and peace and is rational.

your faux moral superiority over the "non whites" is imerialist and repulsive.

By mutual consent, not by genetics or other innate knowledge.

Not for long.

Disagreed.

Nice fantasy.

A not so nice fantasy but I understand why you believe it.

 

[Cypress]

A slight disagreement. After the Crucifixion, there were a lot of variations of belief. Specifically revolving around the divinity of Jesus, his relation to God and what it all meant. Lots of blood was spilled in these disputes.

IMO, a Christian follows the teachings of Jesus, as distorted as some of those teachings might be from a carefully edited book designed to create a new religion. It doesn't mean one has to accept the divinity of Jesus or that the only path to the mountain top is by accepting Christ as one's lord and savior.

I see what you're saying, but there really hasn't been a true Gnostic church in 1800 years . In the modern sense of the word, all Christian denominations of any significance believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a matter of doctrine.

Muslims believe in the teachings of Jesus, but only believe he was an important human prophet.

 

[Cypress]

Not everyone agrees with your list: https://historycollection.com/40-of-the-most-influential-people-of-all-time/

Clueless people often speak out of their ass from ignorance. I respect you because you have more patience with them. Are you are father, Cypress? I ask because it came up with my siblings several years ago when dealing with our father; the two with children were a lot more likely to "let it go" than the two without, my youngest sister and myself, who were likely to call him on his bullshit

Here is my theory: we would never have known people like Aristotle without Alexander the Great. I'm not sure the West would have had a Galileo or Einstein without Julius Ceasar and Alexander the Great. I don't think modern western science would exist in the sense that we know it without the monotheism of the Abrahamic religion.

Aristotle was just a Macedonian who ran a school near Athens and was called on to tutor to young Alexander the Great. It was Alexander's empire that permanently spread Greek culture, Greek philosophy, Greek science, Greek litetature, Greek ways of thought throughout the known world.

I don't think we would recognize the trajectory of western history without the footprint of 1,500 years of a Roman Empire. And that can be loosely traced to the Julius Ceasar

I have been a parent and grandfather to stepchildren and stepgrand children for the last 30 years. How about you?

 

[Cypress]

But you are still a Christian.

You don't know what "unlikely" means?

I am probably the board's record-holder of posting threads with the content of the world's most famous atheist thinkers, and their blistering critiques of Christianity.

It seems the religionists and the militant atheists assume you have to join one team or the other, and then just be a relentless propagandist for that doctrine.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Here is my theory: we would never have known people like Aristotle without Alexander the Great. I'm not sure the West would have had a Galileo or Einstein without Julius Ceasar and Alexander the Great. I don't think modern western science would exist in the sense that we know it without the monotheism of the Abrahamic religion.

Aristotle was just a Macedonian who ran a school near Athens and was called on to tutor to young Alexander the Great. It was Alexander's empire that permanently spread Greek culture, Greek philosophy, Greek science, Greek litetature, Greek ways of thought throughout the known world.

I don't think we would recognize the trajectory of western history without the footprint of 1,500 years of a Roman Empire. And that can be loosely traced to the Julius Ceasar

I have been a parent and grandfather to stepchildren and stepgrand children for the last 30 years. How about you?

Agreed, in part, on connecting the dots. That said, it's not reasonable to say that, without Einstein, we'd never have a theory of relativity or figure out that E =MC2. The physical laws of the universe remain as they are regardless if we know about them or not. The moons of Jupiter would still be in their orbits with or without Galileo.

You and I are agreed that these figures created watershed moments in human history.

I forwent children in favor of a military career. TBH, I didn't think I'd last past 40 or, at a minimum, be in any condition to raise children. There was a point in my mid-30s where I thought "Did I make a mistake?", but it was a fleeting thought and I went "Nawww!". I do like being a grandpa. It can be fun watching them learn, but also fun to send them back to their parents.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I see what you're saying, but there really hasn't been a true Gnostic church in 1800 years . In the modern sense of the word, all Christian denominations of any significance believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as a matter of doctrine.

Muslims believe in the teachings of Jesus, but only believe he was an important human prophet.

Agreed. All the differing views were burned as heretics. It's like asking the question "Why are humans the only intelligent species on the planet?" Answer: because we killed off all the competition.

Agreed on Muslims being part of the Abrahamic religions and acceptance of Jesus as a prophet.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I am probably the board's record-holder of posting threads with the content of the world's most famous atheist thinkers, and their blistering critiques of Christianity.

It seems the religionists and the militant atheists assume you have to join one team or the other, and then just be a relentless propagandist for that doctrine.

You have my nomination for being JPP's #1 intelligent and thought-provoking thread starter.

Besides enjoying engaging in rational discussions on various ideas, I also enjoy studying the various reactions in an attempt to assess their education and rationality.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. All the differing views were burned as heretics. It's like asking the question "Why are humans the only intelligent species on the planet?" Answer: because we killed off all the competition.

Agreed on Muslims being part of the Abrahamic religions and acceptance of Jesus as a prophet.

It would be interesting to know if Neanderthals could have had the intelligence and abstract thought abilities of Homo-sapiens.

Neanderthal's brains seem to have been larger. Even though they were contemporaneous with Homo-sapiens, it's not universally accepted they had art, religion, belief in a transcendent reality as Homo-sapiens did. There are some alleged examples of Neanderthal art and ritual practice, but these are controversial and not uniformly accepted by experts.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed, in part, on connecting the dots. That said, it's not reasonable to say that, without Einstein, we'd never have a theory of relativity or figure out that E =MC2. The physical laws of the universe remain as they are regardless if we know about them or not. The moons of Jupiter would still be in their orbits with or without Galileo.

You and I are agreed that these figures created watershed moments in human history.

I forwent children in favor of a military career. TBH, I didn't think I'd last past 40 or, at a minimum, be in any condition to raise children. There was a point in my mid-30s where I thought "Did I make a mistake?", but it was a fleeting thought and I went "Nawww!". I do like being a grandpa. It can be fun watching them learn, but also fun to send them back to their parents.

You make a good point.

My two cents:

We certainly had logic, deduction, skeptical inquiry long before Einstein.

But we had that because of the Greek thinkers.

And we had access to Greek thought over the long term because of Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, and Christianity.

I'm not sure how long it would have taken the Chinese to develop the empirical experimental scientific method. Even as late as the early 20th century they still didn't have it. They had to borrow it from the West.

China always had technology, and they understood mathematical fundamentals.

But as late as the 1890s, a Chinese education for the elite was a Confucian education. A Confucian education concerned itself with moral education, literacy, and right behavior.

....they had to import logic, deduction, empirical reasoning, experimental science from the west.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

It would be interesting to know if Neanderthals could have had the intelligence and abstract thought abilities of Homo-sapiens.

Neanderthal's brains seem to have been larger. Even though they were contemporaneous with Homo-sapiens, it's not universally accepted they had art, religion, belief in a transcendent reality as Homo-sapiens did. There are some alleged examples of Neanderthal art and ritual practice, but these are controversial and not uniformly accepted by experts.

They were intelligent tool-makers, fire-starters and seafarers as shown by their spread to islands across the Med. It appears Homo sapiens sapiens were smarter. Had they survived, it's unknown if they would ever develop enough tech to build cities and mechanical devices but I doubt it.

Neanderthal | Characteristics, DNA, & Facts | Britannica

Neanderthal, one of a group of archaic humans who emerged at least 200,000 years ago in the Pleistocene Epoch and were replaced or assimilated by early modern human populations (Homo sapiens) 35,000 to perhaps 24,000 years ago. They inhabited Eurasia from the Atlantic through the Mediterranean...

www.britannica.com

Neanderthals lived before and during the last ice age of the Pleistocene in some of the most unforgiving environments ever inhabited by humans. They developed a successful culture, with a complex stone tool technology, that was based on hunting, with some scavenging and local plant collection. Their survival during tens of thousands of years of the last glaciation is a remarkable testament to human adaptation.

Neanderthals

Neanderthals, an extinct species of hominids, were the closest relatives to modern human beings.

www.history.com

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You make a good point.

My two cents:

We certainly had logic, deduction, skeptical inquiry long before Einstein.

But we had that because of the Greek thinkers.

And we had access to Greek thought over the long term because of Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, and Christianity.

I'm not sure how long it would have taken the Chinese to develop the empirical experimental scientific method. Even as late as the early 20th century they still didn't have it. They had to borrow it from the West.

China always had technology, and they understood mathematical fundamentals.

But as late as the 1890s, a Chinese education for the elite was a Confucian education. A Confucian education concerned itself with moral education, literacy, and right behavior.

But they had to important logic, deduction, empirical reasoning, experimental science from the west.

Interesting point about the difference in cultures. Note that the difference in DNA between the East and the West is negligible to the point of being irrelevant. The difference is culture. Specifically, the importance different cultures place on things or concepts.

Consider American culture, especially Euro-American middle-class culture, which is almost nomadic in a quest to make money compared to another such as Mexican, which places more emphasis on family. Usually this comparison is seen in industrial vs. agrarian, with Americans being an extreme on the Industrial side.

Which is better? IMO, that's a relativistic viewpoint. It gets into morals, spirituality, survival and other factors. My point of view places more emphasis on survival of the species which means gettting off planet to avoid a "all the eggs in one basket" problem. Specifically, seeing our species or civilizations wiped out by a natural or self-induced calamity.

If we, as I do, believe in a post-mortem existence, then the question can be "Does it really matter if our species survives or not?" I think it does if one considers life to be game with "winning" being the species that spreads itself the most across the galaxy.

 

[Cypress]

Interesting point about the difference in cultures. Note that the difference in DNA between the East and the West is negligible to the point of being irrelevant. The difference is culture. Specifically, the importance different cultures place on things or concepts.

Consider American culture, especially Euro-American middle-class culture, which is almost nomadic in a quest to make money compared to another such as Mexican, which places more emphasis on family. Usually this comparison is seen in industrial vs. agrarian, with Americans being an extreme on the Industrial side.

Which is better? IMO, that's a relativistic viewpoint. It gets into morals, spirituality, survival and other factors. My point of view places more emphasis on survival of the species which means gettting off planet to avoid a "all the eggs in one basket" problem. Specifically, seeing our species or civilizations wiped out by a natural or self-induced calamity.

If we, as I do, believe in a post-mortem existence, then the question can be "Does it really matter if our species survives or not?" I think it does if one considers life to be game with "winning" being the species that spreads itself the most across the galaxy.

^^ Good train of thought.

I do think that logical deduction and rational skeptical inquiry was unique to western civilization, largely because of a perfect storm of the Hellenized Greek empires, the Roman Empire, and monotheistic Abrahamic religion.

As to the relative merit of cultures, all the major world religious and cultural traditions do seem to converge of finding some ultimate meaning or purpose to the human condition.

I am not going to complain too much about the physical materialism and reductionist relativism of the modern American culture to you allude to. Not everyone needs to look for or think about any ultimate purpose or understanding.

But I personally don't think reducing humanity to physics, materialism, and moral relativism has ever been a compelling or deeply satisfying system of thought to me.

 

[Cypress]

They were intelligent tool-makers, fire-starters and seafarers as shown by their spread to islands across the Med. It appears Homo sapiens sapiens were smarter. Had they survived, it's unknown if they would ever develop enough tech to build cities and mechanical devices but I doubt it.

Neanderthal | Characteristics, DNA, & Facts | Britannica

Neanderthal, one of a group of archaic humans who emerged at least 200,000 years ago in the Pleistocene Epoch and were replaced or assimilated by early modern human populations (Homo sapiens) 35,000 to perhaps 24,000 years ago. They inhabited Eurasia from the Atlantic through the Mediterranean...

www.britannica.com

Neanderthals lived before and during the last ice age of the Pleistocene in some of the most unforgiving environments ever inhabited by humans. They developed a successful culture, with a complex stone tool technology, that was based on hunting, with some scavenging and local plant collection. Their survival during tens of thousands of years of the last glaciation is a remarkable testament to human adaptation.

Neanderthals

Neanderthals, an extinct species of hominids, were the closest relatives to modern human beings.

www.history.com

^^ bloody interesting stuff.

 

[Daylight63]

I never had that experience.

Then you are truly blessed. For most people the struggle between what we want to do and what we know is right is a very real thing.

 

[Cypress]

You have my nomination for being JPP's #1 intelligent and thought-provoking thread starter.

Besides enjoying engaging in rational discussions on various ideas, I also enjoy studying the various reactions in an attempt to assess their education and rationality.

One reason I like posting a wide spectrum of content from the great thinkers of atheists, religionists, scientists, moral relativists, and moral law objectivists is because it is extremely effective at revealing who is a dogmatic thinker and who is a free thinker

 

[Margot]

Agreed. All the differing views were burned as heretics. It's like asking the question "Why are humans the only intelligent species on the planet?" Answer: because we killed off all the competition.

Agreed on Muslims being part of the Abrahamic religions and acceptance of Jesus as a prophet.

Jews and Muslims have similar views of Jesus!
Christians it's Jesus was YHWH incarnated!

 

[IBDaMann]

I believe there is a moral law imprinted on the human conscience that supersedes human opinion or human fiat.

Don't you mean "subservient to" instead of "supersedes"? Otherwise there could be no people deciding to act immorally and everyone would be behaving identically.

That's how I can say what the Nazis did to Jews was absolutely and objectively wrong.

So there must not have been any moral law superseding the Nazis' fiats.

Otherwise, disbelief in a universal objective moral law means the Nazis just had a different opinion than you;

Which they did. Go on.

you cannot say they were objectively wrong.

Well, you just flip-flopped over four lines.