God is not intelligent, or, why I am a pantheist

[Bai Lan]

In the struggle for survival and in accordance with natural laws, conflict and violence are rational at some level.

No one bats an eye when a male lion kills the cubs of a rival, a leopard takes over the territory of a female and her cubs, or chimpanzees kill intruders from a rival chimp group.

Animals understand perfectly the reasons for conflict, and even the need for inflicting harm on rivals or taking their territory.


The type of Christian pacifism preached by Jesus is irrational compared to the natural order of things.

but at a higher more rational level, conflict and war are stupid and only profit the war profiteers.

that;s why you're here perverting morality.

you're a sick war machine fuck.

 

[Daylight63]

In the struggle for survival and in accordance with natural laws, conflict and violence are rational at some level.

As is cooperation and care for each other.

 

[Bai Lan]

As is cooperation and care for each other.

these war profiteers are literally enemies of peace.

it's so very evil.

 

[Cypress]

But animals often care for members of their group who are injured.

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I cited examples of humans risking their lives and their welfare to help complete strangers. Not family members, not friends, not second cousins.

Evolutionary biology can explain altruism among extended family, and cooperation with one's pack.

 

[Cypress]

but at a higher more rational level, conflict and war are stupid and only profit the war profiteers.

that;s why you're here perverting morality.

you're a sick war machine fuck.

Slogans and platitudes are not an argument.

Either humans are just part of the animal world and nothing particularly special, or we are utterly unique in morals and conscience.

Pick one.

The rational response to the Black Plague was to light out and sprint for the countryside, if you could. At least according to the laws of nature and survival. That is exactly what a lot of people did. Animals will instinctively understand to avoid the seriously diseased. That is a law of nature

The irrational response would be to risk your life to tend to complete strangers in their death throes. Which is what some exceptional priests, deacons, and doctors did. I think the model to emulate was Jesus tending to the lepers.

 

[Daylight63]

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

But you said that it is natural for one to avoid the sick. I'm just pointing out how animals don't always do that.

I cited examples of humans risking their lives and their welfare to help complete strangers. Not family members, not friends, not second cousins.

That's why I mentioned the inside and outside of the clan. I think, however, that humans have some special ability to generalize and recognize that another human, even if they are not in our tribe, may be in need of help and since we know that it is quite common in nature for some animals who haven't had the benefit of the teachings of the moral philosophers to care for the injured that this isn't that strange.

Evolutionary biology can explain altruism among extended family, and cooperation with one's pack.

How does that operate. I assume there must be some evolutionary aspect to it, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Daylight63]

Either humans are just part of the animal world and nothing particularly special, or we are utterly unique in morals and conscience.

Maybe we're both.

 

[IBDaMann]

God is not intelligent.

... at least you acknowledge His existence. I haven't been able to get even that far.

Or rather, God is not an intelligence. The distinction is significant. God is an abstraction, and a mystery.

You hit upon a key problem that I also noticed. If God is so smart, why can't he design an ark with more than one window? ... and why was He using cubits when standard units are truly so much better? ... and why turn water into wine when He could have turned it into Viejo de Caldas?

There are just too many unanswered questions.

... there is a spiritual basis to life, that there is spirituality permeating all things

What spirituality is permeating from a bar of Irish Spring?

... and this divine source is not an intelligence. It is just source, a spiritual source sans intelligence.

Maybe you just got some defective ones. Check the warranties.

The simplest definition of Pantheism is that it is the belief that God is not a separate, personal being, but rather that God and the universe are the same. In this view, everything in the natural world is a part of God, and God is present in all things.

Into the Night was just telling me that what you are describing is the correct Christian view. I think we should pull him into this discussion and find out why you are hijacking Christianity and calling it Pantheism.

I have taken this idea and put my own stamp on it,

So, you are hijacking Christianity and Creationism. Are you going to call it "Permeating Design"?

and for lack of a better term, pantheism is much closer to how I see the world, on a spiritual plane, than anything else. ,

You could just adopt Into the Night's version of Christianity and get the same results ... and it would be much quicker and easier, and you wouldn't have to make any separate posts to explain yourself.

Always remember, to a pantheist, his 'God' is not a personal God, or a God in any sense of it's traditional and historical definition, mono or poly. It is more of a non falsifiable force that permeates all things, more or less.

So you believe in The Force. How does your The Force differ from the Christian God?

My God is not theistic nor deistic,

Yes it is. Your God of The Force is supernatural which makes it theistic.

it is more on the Einsteinian pantheistic model.

Nope. Einstein used the term "God" euphemistically to refer to "the forces of nature" ... all of which he sought to express scientifically. Your God of the Force is unfalsifiable and cannot have any science modeling it.

It does not intervene or answer prayers,

... as far as you are aware, although it might have answered some of your prayers without you knowing it.

... in my view, true prayer is meditation and meditation is the fastest path to God.

... but untrue prayer still gets the job done, right?

... our natural heritage and all souls, like bubbles in in the ocean, are bubbling upward and will eventually reach the sky, it is inevitable.

What about those of us who have no natural heritage, and who only have unnatural heritage? I don't think we'll ever bubble upward.

 

[IBDaMann]

Maybe we're both.

Maybe dolphins actually run everything.

 

[Hume]

That's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard anyone respond to the "Golden Rule" like that. It feels far more intuitive to me.

Intuitive does not mean true.

 

[Bai Lan]

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

I cited examples of humans risking their lives and their welfare to help complete strangers. Not family members, not friends, not second cousins.

Evolutionary biology can explain altruism among extended family, and cooperation with one's pack.

humans are able to take things further, through understanding the value of moral behavior and, yes, even extending that to stangers.

morality is our strength, not our mass murder ability gained from abusing physics.

why do you hate morality being rational?

 

[Bai Lan]

Intuitive does not mean true.

but rational does mean rational.

moral behavior is rational if you see strength through cooperation instead of dominance through violence as something to strive for.

maybe you believe in the mass murder ideology of might makes right instead.

 

[Bai Lan]

what about when mother animals of one species suckles the offspring of another?

this happens.

lets watch Hume squirm around in his sinful gyrations.

 

[Bai Lan]

cypress loses again.

 

[Cypress]

humans are able to take things further, through understanding the value of moral behavior and, yes, even extending that to stangers.

morality is our strength, not our mass murder ability gained from abusing physics.

why do you hate morality being rational?

In accordance with the laws of nature and survival, it would be rational to run away from a diseased infectious stranger during the black death.

Every animal on the planet understands this.

You even understand this, though you are reticent to admit it.

If we have a conscience that can be appealed to outside the laws of nature, then we are saying humans are something totally unique in Earth's four billion years of biology.

 

[Bai Lan]

In accordance with the laws of nature and survival, it would be rational to run away from a diseased infectious stranger during the black death.

Every animal on the planet understands this.

You even understand this, though you are reticent to admit it.

If we have a conscience that can be appealed to outside the laws of nature, then we are saying humans are something totally unique in four billion years of biology.

also accordance with laws of survival are mammalian loving and cooperation with each other.

this is why you are called the lizard people.

rationality is not outside nature.

your ideology is based on a paranoic fear of all other living things.

 

[Cypress]

But you said that it is natural for one to avoid the sick. I'm just pointing out how animals don't always do that.



That's why I mentioned the inside and outside of the clan. I think, however, that humans have some special ability to generalize and recognize that another human, even if they are not in our tribe, may be in need of help and since we know that it is quite common in nature for some animals who haven't had the benefit of the teachings of the moral philosophers to care for the injured that this isn't that strange.



How does that operate. I assume there must be some evolutionary aspect to it, but I don't know for sure.

The biologists will say protecting your offspring and siblings ensures part of your genetic code survives, no matter what happens to you. Cooperating with peers in your pack for self-defense and hunting is an expectation of reciprocation, also easily explained by Evolutionary theory.

The teachings of Jesus say that you do not get any special credit for helping family members, friends, or people you expect reciprocation from. Even sinners will help their family, friends, and people who will reciprocate them. You don't get a pat on the back for that. You get credit for helping complete strangers, transients, rivals, enemies.

That is not rational, according to the laws of nature and survival.

Based on the laws of nature, it is irrational to sacrifice your interests for the welfare of a complete stranger or even a rival, and it is irrational to risk your life to tend to an infectious and diseased stranger.


The claim that all of morality is completely rational just doesn't cut the mustard once you look past the level of slogans and platitudes.

 

[Cypress]

also accordance with laws of survival are mammalian loving and cooperation with each other.

this is why you are called the lizard people.

rationality is not outside nature.

your ideology is based on a paranoic fear of all other living things.

No, you have never seen any video of one lion pride bringing food to a rival/foreign lion pride.

You have never seen video of chimpanzees bringing fruit to a rival/foreign chimpanzee group .

"Rational morality" sounded good to you when it was only a slogan or platitude. But when you start looking at details beyond slogan, not all morality taught by Jesus, Siddartha Buddha, or Confucious was strictly rational. It was an appeal to something in our human conscience that went beyond the biological needs of reproduction, survival, and cooperation with extended family members.

 

[Bai Lan]

No, you have never seen any video of one lion pride bringing food to a rival/foreign lion pride.

You have never seen video of chimpanzees bringing fruit to a rival/foreign chimpanzee group .

"Rational morality" sounded good to you when it was only a slogan or platitude. But when you start looking at details beyond slogan, not all morality taught by Jesus, Siddartha Buddha, or Confucious was strictly rational. It was an appeal to something in our human conscience that went beyond the biological needs of reproduction, survival, and cooperation with family members.

I have seen animals of different species cooperating.

And you keep forgetting, humans are smart enough to apply moral ingroup lessons to novel circumstances.

here's something for your to ponder.

One evening, an elderly Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside each of us.

He said, “My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all. One is evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.”

“The same fight is going on inside you—and inside every other person, too.”

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf wins?”

The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one that you feed.”


you're morally retarded and always feed the evil wolf.

 

[Cypress]

I have seen animals of different species cooperating.

What does that even mean? Give specifics.

I have been feeding birds and squirrels for years. The parents will bring food to the offspring. That is easily explained by evolutionary theory. I have never, ever seen birds bring food as a charitable donation to another species.

You can scour the internet for supposed exceptions and rare anomalies. But the fact is, some of the types of morality taught by human prophets have nothing to do with rationality in the context of the laws of nature and survival.