School Prayer...

leaningright said:
Do you deny that there are those who oppose this? Do you deny that there are those who have brought into question publicly the constitutionality of students granted the opportunity to "observe a moment of silence?" Think about it carefully for a minute.



To go a little further on the subject of this thread, I am already on record that I am not in favor of public prayer except at church or in my home. But I will tell you this...there are still several schools in my county who have a public, "Christian" prayer before sporting events, at graduations and such. All of the schools in the area have a "gather at the pole" day where a prayer is said. All of them still have a Baccalaureate service (conducted by some sort of "Christian" preacher) at the end of the year...attendance voluntary of course but still on school property. My point is that there are still sections of the country who would fight you tooth and nail if you tried to take those things away from them in the name of "separation" of church and state. Right or wrong, that's the way a lot of folks feel. Social conservatism may be waning in a lot of areas and softening in a lot of ways, but like it or not, it is still strong within a pretty good size segment of our society...so much so that many don't care what the SC rules.
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There will always be people who oppose something, but the rule allows a moment of silence and those areas of the country still stuck in the 1950's will one day come into the new century. The world is moving from darkness to light and from conservative to liberal.
 
Ice Dancer said:
You have the test wrong. The modern test is: if the government promotes a specific religion, or one religion over another in schools. I say modern because that was not what used to be meant. It was a given that schools used to have prayer every day before classes began. Used to teach the bible etc. Obviously the Constitution was not challenged until the last century.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with (Un Constitutional) a moment of silence that allows for those so inclined to pray to the God, higher power, fairy godmother of their choosing.
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You are correct, I was dumbing it down. The S.Ct. allows a moment of silence.
 
So again, does anyone here belive that agents of the government should be promoting that our children pray? Or meditate? or bow to Allah?
 
Jarod said:
Byrd's amendment was different than the one Reagan proposed. Byrds allowed volentary school prayer, just so it was not led by school employees. Reagans Amendment allowed prayer to be led by school employees as a part of the scheduled day!
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Wrong as usual....

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metacrs8602/m1/

Prayer Amendment
By Lou Cannon
Wnshlngton Pa& Stall Wrlter
President Reagan yesterday sent Congress a 37-
word proposed constitutional amendment that
would permit voluntary prayer in school.
The wording of the amendment represented
what one White House aide called the "maximum
defensible position" on school prayer and rejected
the suggestions of some aides who favored treating
"an affirmative right to prayer."
The proposed wording reads: "Nothing in this
Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual
or group prayer in public schools or other
public institutions. No person shall be required by
the United States or by any state to participate in
prayer."
Essentially, the amendment would restore the
law to what it was before the Supreme Court
struck down school-sponsored prayer in claw
rooms two decades ago. Speaking to advocates of
the amendment in the White House Rose Garden
on May 6, Reagan urged a reawakening of "America's
religious and moral heart" and protection of
religion from *government tyranny."
(more)

Essentially, the exact same proposal a Sen. Byrd (D)
----------------
 
Jarod said:
You are correct, I was dumbing it down. The S.Ct. allows a moment of silence.
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There seems to be some disagreement with that conclusion....notwithstanding the S. Ct.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/21/school-moment-of-silence_n_159833.html

School Moment-Of-Silence Law Ruled Unconstitutional


I should have clarified my question here...how in practice, can you allow a moment of silence without it being construed as mandating a moment of silence...????
----------------------------------------------

Anyway....tell me....

Both Reagan and Byrd said...

"Nothing in this Constitution, including any amendment to this Constitution, shall be construed to prohibit voluntary prayer

So what particular words or amendments prohibit voluntary prayer....???

Say, a student at a Commencement saying a prayer during his or her speech...you know as well as I that this is not allowed....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
 
Last edited:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...the establishment clause....

One must torture the English language to absurdity in order to use this simple clause to prohibit a moment of silence or a student voluntarily praying in school...or some of the other issues that have become taboo, especially around the holidays...

In any case, Congress in not "making" law by any stretch of the imagination....
 
Jarod said:
So again, does anyone here belive that agents of the government should be promoting that our children pray? Or meditate? or bow to Allah?
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Do agents of the government have a right to promote healthy eating?
Do they have the right to promote non-smoking?
Do they have the right to promote healthy dental practices?
Do they have the right to promote condom usage?
Do they have the right to promote patriotism?

Or is it that you would like to personally pick and choose what agents of the government get to promote and what they are forbidden to promote?

Promoting something is NOT establishing something! Promoting the RESPECT for beliefs in the Creator who endowed us with our rights, is NOT prohibited by our rights! It is a backward argument, convoluted in logic, and allowed to fester in society because of nitwits like you, who don't see how retarded it is!
 
bravo said:
There seems to be some disagreement with that conclusion....notwithstanding the S. Ct.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/21/school-moment-of-silence_n_159833.html

School Moment-Of-Silence Law Ruled Unconstitutional


I should have clarified my question here...how in practice, can you allow a moment of silence without it being construed as mandating a moment of silence...????
----------------------------------------------

Anyway....tell me....

Both Reagan and Byrd said...

"Nothing in this Constitution, including any amendment to this Constitution, shall be construed to prohibit voluntary prayer

So what particular words or amendments prohibit voluntary prayer....???

Say, a student at a Commencement saying a prayer during his or her speech...you know as well as I that this is not allowed....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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That is absolutly allowed. If a student, on his own volition says a prayer at a time when students are allowed to make anouncements of other comments that would be permissable.
 
bravo said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...the establishment clause....

One must torture the English language to absurdity in order to use this simple clause to prohibit a moment of silence or a student voluntarily praying in school...or some of the other issues that have become taboo, especially around the holidays...

In any case, Congress in not "making" law by any stretch of the imagination....
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The Constitution, as interperted by the S.Ct does not prohibit a moment of silence or a volentary prayer by a student.
 
Dixie said:
Do agents of the government have a right to promote healthy eating?
Do they have the right to promote non-smoking?
Do they have the right to promote healthy dental practices?
Do they have the right to promote condom usage?
Do they have the right to promote patriotism?

Or is it that you would like to personally pick and choose what agents of the government get to promote and what they are forbidden to promote?

Promoting something is NOT establishing something! Promoting the RESPECT for beliefs in the Creator who endowed us with our rights, is NOT prohibited by our rights! It is a backward argument, convoluted in logic, and allowed to fester in society because of nitwits like you, who don't see how retarded it is!
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Its about promoting the establishment of religen... not promoting establishing religen. Two different things.

The establishment of religen is something that already exists. As in, the Catholic Church is an establishment of religen.
 
Jarod said:
Its about promoting the establishment of religen... not promoting establishing religen. Two different things.

The establishment of religen is something that already exists. As in, the Catholic Church is an establishment of religen.
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You are misinterpreting what it says.

To "promote the establishment of" means to advocate for the establishing of something. The proper English context of what you THINK it says, would be: "Congress shall make no law respecting religious establishments."

Since our Founders labored long and hard to find just the correct wording, I doubt they made such an obvious grammatical error in the most critical portion of the very 1st Amendment.
 
Dixie said:
You are misinterpreting what it says.

To "promote the establishment of" means to advocate for the establishing of something. The proper English context of what you THINK it says, would be: "Congress shall make no law respecting religious establishments."

Since our Founders labored long and hard to find just the correct wording, I doubt they made such an obvious grammatical error in the most critical portion of the very 1st Amendment.
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You are incorrect.
 
Jarod said:
The Constitution, as interperted by the S.Ct does not prohibit a moment of silence or a volentary prayer by a student.
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Well there certainly seems to be some disagreement about it....for example

2001-MAR-4: California: Graduation address about Jesus: A California high school valedictorian was barred by his public school from delivering a graduation speech in which he was going to ask the audience to "accept God's love" and live by "Jesus' example." He appealed the case to the U.S. Supreme Court, who refused to consider it. They gave no reason for their rejection. This leaves the lower court ruling intact -- that such speech violates the separation of church and state.

2003-FEB-19: California: Federal appeals court edits graduation speech: Nicholas Lassonde, was a co-salutatorian for the 1999 graduating class of Amador Valley High School in the San Francisco Bay area. Student speech edited by the Government?

2006-MAY-19: Kentucky: Graduation ceremony prayer blocked: Judge Joseph H. McKinley of the U.S. District Court in Bowling Green issued a temporary restraining order that blocked the inclusion of a Christian prayer as part of the graduation ceremonies at Russell County High School later that day.

I don't know why I'm bothering about this, I don't give a good crap one way or the other...but I hate to see the Constitution abused with convoluted logic and a simple phrase in it, tortured by liberals to push their agenda....200+ years after its written, we are forced to re-interpreted what we thought was a settled matter
 
See Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38

A moment of slience for the purpose of silent prayer is UNCONSTITUTIONAL..

A moment of silence with no stated purpose is CONSTUTIONAL!

See the difference?
 
bravo said:
Well there certainly seems to be some disagreement about it....for example

2001-MAR-4: California: Graduation address about Jesus: A California high school valedictorian was barred by his public school from delivering a graduation speech in which he was going to ask the audience to "accept God's love" and live by "Jesus' example." He appealed the case to the U.S. Supreme Court, who refused to consider it. They gave no reason for their rejection. This leaves the lower court ruling intact -- that such speech violates the separation of church and state.

2003-FEB-19: California: Federal appeals court edits graduation speech: Nicholas Lassonde, was a co-salutatorian for the 1999 graduating class of Amador Valley High School in the San Francisco Bay area. Student speech edited by the Government?

2006-MAY-19: Kentucky: Graduation ceremony prayer blocked: Judge Joseph H. McKinley of the U.S. District Court in Bowling Green issued a temporary restraining order that blocked the inclusion of a Christian prayer as part of the graduation ceremonies at Russell County High School later that day.

I don't know why I'm bothering about this, I don't give a good crap one way or the other...but I hate to see the Constitution abused with convoluted logic and a simple phrase in it, tortured by liberals to push their agenda....200+ years after its written, we are forced to re-interpreted what we thought was a settled matter
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Sure, one cant use a public forum, paid for by the government, (graduation ceramony) to promote religen. But if the kids wanted to sit and pray silently in the seats.. no problem. If they wanted to gather before of after the ceramony and pray... no problem.
 
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