Israeli response: is a 2 for 1 ratio acceptable?

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BartenderElite

Verified User
It was reported yesterday that there are 2 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter killed in Gaza.

Is that an acceptable ratio? Has Israel gone too far?
 
BartenderElite said:
It was reported yesterday that there are 2 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter killed in Gaza.

Is that an acceptable ratio? Has Israel gone too far?
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Why blame Israel for striking a legitimate military target when it's Hamas which habitually uses non-combatants as meat shields then bemoans the deaths?

It's not acceptable that Hamas is allowed to violate international law with impunity and the support of Europe and US LWers.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Why blame Israel for striking a legitimate military target when it's Hamas which habitually uses non-combatants as meat shields then bemoans the deaths?

It's not acceptable that Hamas is allowed to violate international law with impunity and the support of Europe and US LWers.
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I don't think it's accurate to characterize it as "blaming" Israel. But, are they going too far? I assume that no matter how much someone believes Israel has a right to retaliate and bring Hamas to justice (and I believe that), there is a limit to what they feel is appropriate, and what goes too far. As an extreme example, I assume no one would support leveling Gaza with carpet bombing so that there are no (or few) survivors.

And I get that Hamas uses civilians as shields. This makes it extremely tough. But is it acceptable to just shrug and continue w/ what is a very high civilian death toll?
 
BartenderElite said:
I don't think it's accurate to characterize it as "blaming" Israel. But, are they going too far? I assume that no matter how much someone believes Israel has a right to retaliate and bring Hamas to justice (and I believe that), there is a limit to what they feel is appropriate, and what goes too far. As an extreme example, I assume no one would support leveling Gaza with carpet bombing so that there are no (or few) survivors.

And I get that Hamas uses civilians as shields. This makes it extremely tough. But is it acceptable to just shrug and continue w/ what is a very high civilian death toll?
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Starting wars has consequences. The US wasn't faulted for the huuuuge lopsided kill ratio of American deaths to Japanese deaths in WWII...and rightfully so.

The American Left has a long history of bringing up the lopsided Arab-Israeli kill ratio; the Palestinians launch rocket or mortar from the roof of a mosque into an Israeli market killing one person and wounding a few. Israel retaliates with an airstrike on the launch point killing 50. That's not going too far. That's just war.

What else would you have the Israelis do? If the Mexican cartels crossed into El Paso committing mass murder and rape then kidnapped 150 Americans to trade for all the cartel prisoners in the US, would you fault Biden for sending the Marine Corps over the border to wipe them out? What if the cartels use meat shields? Should we give up and go home?
 
Doc Dutch said:
Why blame Israel for striking a legitimate military target when it's Hamas which habitually uses non-combatants as meat shields then bemoans the deaths?

It's not acceptable that Hamas is allowed to violate international law with impunity and the support of Europe and US LWers.
Click to expand...

Where is the Hamas fighter behind these boys?

 
BartenderElite said:
It was reported yesterday that there are 2 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter killed in Gaza.

Is that an acceptable ratio? Has Israel gone too far?
Click to expand...

I don't put all the blame on the IDF.

Even the supposedly progressive European Union has condemned Hamas for using civilians and hospitals as human shields. Hamas has to carry some of the blame for civilian deaths

Hamas fancies itself the legitimate ruling authority of Gaza and it's fighters are it's armed wing. Ukrainian soldiers didn't hide behind civilians, even though they were universally considered to be completely outgunned by the Russians in February 2022. Hamas is welcome to emulate the Ukraine fighters, and come out from behind civilian shields to fight IDF toe to toe.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Starting wars has consequences. The US wasn't faulted for the huuuuge lopsided kill ratio of American deaths to Japanese deaths in WWII...and rightfully so.

The American Left has a long history of bringing up the lopsided Arab-Israeli kill ratio; the Palestinians launch rocket or mortar from the roof of a mosque into an Israeli market killing one person and wounding a few. Israel retaliates with an airstrike on the launch point killing 50. That's not going too far. That's just war.

What else would you have the Israelis do? If the Mexican cartels crossed into El Paso committing mass murder and rape then kidnapped 150 Americans to trade for all the cartel prisoners in the US, would you fault Biden for sending the Marine Corps over the border to wipe them out? What if the cartels use meat shields? Should we give up and go home?
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Wars have consequences for those who start them. They shouldn't have consequences for innocent civilians who had nothing to do w/ starting them.

Everyone understands collateral damage in a war, and that some casualties are unavoidable. But has Israel crossed that line?

I have always been against dropping the bomb on Hiroshima & Nagasaki - and I always will be against that action.
 
Mr.Badguy said:
Where is the Hamas fighter behind these boys?

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What's the context? Were they attacking IDF troops? Throwing grenades? In Vietnam, little girls were sent toward American troops with a glass jar containing a grenade with the pin pulled. They were told to drop the jar by the troops. After a few deaths, if Americans saw a little girl approaching them, what should they do if the girl refuses to stop? Run? Shoot the girl?

Similar tactics were used in Iraq. You are faulting the Israelis for the actions of Palestinian terrorists who willfully use meat shields, children and mentally challenged people to do their bidding.
 
BartenderElite said:
Wars have consequences for those who start them. They shouldn't have consequences for innocent civilians who had nothing to do w/ starting them.

Everyone understands collateral damage in a war, and that some casualties are unavoidable. But has Israel crossed that line?

I have always been against dropping the bomb on Hiroshima & Nagasaki - and I always will be against that action.
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Agreed. Also agreed life isn't fair. Why do other Arab nations refuse to help evacuate Palestinian non-combatants?

No, Israel has not crossed the line. The people blaming Israel for 75 years of Palestinian terrorism have crossed the line.

I support ending wars as quickly as possible. The fact the US killed more Japanese in the firebombing of Tokyo than at Hiroshima or Nagasaki is why I suspect many Americans are very lacking in historical context. Total civilian casualties of the American bombing of Japan are estimated to be almost 1M. Starting wars has consequences.

Hamas started this war, with Iran's backing. Israel is trying to end it as quickly as possible. I support their efforts. Why don't you condemn 75 years of terrorist attacks against Israel? Why don't you condemn Iran for funding Hamas and Hezbollah?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan
241,000–900,000 killed
213,000–1,300,000 wounded
8,500,000 rendered homeless

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
The Operation Meetinghouse firebombing of Tokyo on the night of 9 March 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II, greater than Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945)
On the night of 9/10 March 1945, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) conducted a devastating firebombing raid on Tokyo, the Japanese capital city. This attack was code-named Operation Meetinghouse by the USAAF and is known as the Great Tokyo Air Raid in Japan.[1] Bombs dropped from 279 Boeing B-29 Superfortress heavy bombers burned out much of eastern Tokyo. More than 90,000 and possibly over 100,000 Japanese people were killed, mostly civilians, and one million were left homeless, making it the most destructive single air attack in human history.
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Cypress said:
I don't put all the blame on the IDF.

Even the supposedly progressive European Union has condemned Hamas for using civilians and hospitals as human shields. Hamas has to carry some of the blame for civilian deaths

Hamas fancies itself the legitimate ruling authority of Gaza and it's fighters are it's armed wing. Ukrainian soldiers didn't hide behind civilians, even though they were universally considered to be completely outgunned by the Russians in February 2022. Hamas is welcome to emulate the Ukraine fighters, and come out from behind civilian shields to fight IDF toe to toe.
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I know what you're saying, but the morality can get murky.

It's basically akin to a hostage situation. Not just the actual hostages being held there, but using civilians as shields is a kind of extension of that. All are innocents, put in harm's way, for leverage.

In a normal hostage situation, every effort is made to protect the hostages. I'm just not sure we can say oh well, and put all of the blame on Hamas for whatever happens. They're wrong to use civilians - but is it right to ignore that they are in favor of the prime objective?
 
Doc Dutch said:
What's the context? Were they attacking IDF troops? Throwing grenades? In Vietnam, little girls were sent toward American troops with a glass jar containing a grenade with the pin pulled. They were told to drop the jar by the troops. After a few deaths, if Americans saw a little girl approaching them, what should they do if the girl refuses to stop? Run? Shoot the girl?

Similar tactics were used in Iraq. You are faulting the Israelis for the actions of Palestinian terrorists who willfully use meat shields, children and mentally challenged people to do their bidding.
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They were throwing rocks and the equivalent of m80s. Fireworks essentially.

Besides ideally we wouldn't have been in Vietnam on the first place to where they'd resort to desperate tactics to defend their home community.
 
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Mr.Badguy said:
They were throwing rocks and the equivalent of m80s. Fireworks essentially.

Besides ideally we wouldn't have been in Vietnam on the first place to where they'd resort to desperate tactics to defend their home community.
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So? I can kill with fireworks and rocks. Are you saying they are too fucking stupid to do so because they are Arabs? Because they are Muslims?

We wouldn't have been in WWI if not for Wilson. WWII if not for FDR. The atomic bombs you hate so much wouldn't have been dropped if not for Truman. Truman also got us in Korea. JFK and LBJ in Vietnam. Gee, do you see a pattern there? LOL
 
BartenderElite said:
It was reported yesterday that there are 2 civilian deaths for every Hamas fighter killed in Gaza.

Is that an acceptable ratio? Has Israel gone too far?
Click to expand...


That's the way it has to be.

Israel must be Draconian to survive.

The Jihadists brought it on themselves.

It's easy to be a bleeding heart when you don't have to deal with those savages.
 
There were around 600k civilian deaths in Germany in bombing raids and that was 100% acceptable to stop the Nazis
 
NiftyNiblick said:
That's the way it has to be.

Israel must be Draconian to survive.

The Jihadists brought it on themselves.

It's easy to be a bleeding heart when you don't have to deal with those savages.
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Nazis in Germany were savages and no one cried about how we dealt with them


Hamas in Palestine are savages and idiots are crying about how we they are being dealt with
 
volsrock said:
Nazis in Germany were savages and no one cried about how we dealt with them
Hamas in Palestine are savages and idiots are crying about how we they are being dealt with
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It's not exactly the same thing.
Germany formally declared war on us.

All war is without formality or rules today.
It's not about right or wrong.
It's about with whom you choose to side.

I'd rather the Israelis win.
 
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