Assailants on Tuesday gunned down the mother, aunt and siblings of a marine killed

[wiseones2cents]

There are numerous firearms manufacturers that are highly regulated due to the possibility of making auto firearms. It would be nearly impossible for any one of them to manufacture a batch of them to go south without SOMEONE alerting the ATF.

Oh please. Its not impossible. All kinds of things happen in America without "nobody" knowing. One thing I have learned. Where there is big profits? There is corruption. You can bank on that.

[I've followed this story since it broke. My involvement in the gun rights community is pretty extensive. Your links completely gloss over the fact that the 90% figure comes from the only weapons that mexico bothered to give the US data on. It's pretty easy to make that come out the way you want it to.

Oh please. Out of the 29,000 weapons confiscated? Only about 10,000 or so were traced. With 90% confirmed origionating from the USA! I would imagine that a large percentage of the remaining 19,000 would be traced back to the USA.

maybe this 'story' would have more teeth in it if mexico allowed DoJ investigators complete and total access to all weapons recovered instead of piecemealing the specific data they want to achieve a desired result. THAT has nothing at all to do with your suggestion of my denial.

I bet if the DoJ offered to help trace the guns? They would be more then welcome to. It costs time and money.

1/3 of the guns resulting in 90% of the guns traced to the USA is not piecemealing.lol Yes, you are clearly still in denial.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/counting-mexicos-guns/

Yes I read it. All it is saying is that they did not trace all the guns but of the 1/3 of the guns traced? USA was its origin. I am willing to wager that a large percentage of the remaining 2/3 of the guns will also be traced back to the USA.

I have read NUMEROUS sources and all point to the guns coming from the USA. No gun supporters that try to manipulate information to protect their interests are going to convince me other wise.

Still in denial?

 

[wiseones2cents]

Probably in Belgium where FN (the current manufacturer of nearly ALL American military firearms) is located.

What is FN?

Oh and how about the Colt AR-15, which seems to be the weapon of choice of the gangs??Where are those made?Colt's Manufacturing Company.

Now why would this company turn to selling arms illegally? Hmmmmmmm

I found something interesting.

The 1990s brought the end of Cold War, which resulted in a large down turn for the entire defense industry. Colt was hit by this downturn, though it would be made worse later in the 1990s by a boycott.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt's_Manufacturing_Company

Probably from the cold war, as discussed several pages ago.

"Probably"? I thought they had M16 in the cold war. Not AR-15. Plus the 90% traceable weapons were not remenants of the cold war. They were traced back to the USA.

I read it, and like STY mentioned that is only the firearms reported. Not to mention the fact that the Mexican military buys American arms, and that there are large surpluses left over in several south American countries. Since many cartels have strong connections all through out Latin America, access to them versus an American gun manufacturer, would be more worthwhile and less costly.

Yes, it would not suprise me that weapons are also origionating from the Mexican military, but of the weapons they traced which was 1/3 of the total? Were traced back to the USA. Not the Mexican military.

So your "probably" incorrect.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

What is FN?

Before I continue, I want you to be perfectly aware, this question perfectly illustrates your ignorance on the issue.

FN is short for Fabrique Nationale, a Belgian arms company that has been in operations for over 100 years. They currently hold the contracts to ALL U.S. Military small arms with a few exceptions (Beretta has the pistol contract and there are several .50 caliber rifle makers)

Oh and how about the Colt AR-15, which seems to be the weapon of choice of the gangs??Where are those made?Colt's Manufacturing Company.

The AR-15 is made by so many companies I cannot even list them here. And where do you get the idea that it is so popular for gangs to use? They're bulky, expensive (especially Colts), and attract a lot of unwanted attention. By my count they're only used in 0.18% of all violent crime, though admittedly this is an American statistic, no a Mexican one.

Now why would this company turn to selling arms illegally? Hmmmmmmm

You're right, why would they risk their entire business and the lives of their employees with a list of felonies to make the ATF explode into orgasm?

I found something interesting.

Did you now?

The 1990s brought the end of Cold War, which resulted in a large down turn for the entire defense industry. Colt was hit by this downturn, though it would be made worse later in the 1990s by a boycott.

Yeah, bad days for Colt, but in the end it was their own fault for buying into their own hype. They made a product that wasn't worth the asking price, both on the civilian and military markets. FN, however, saw an opportunity and took it.

"Probably"? I thought they had M16 in the cold war. Not AR-15. Plus the 90% traceable weapons were not remenants of the cold war. They were traced back to the USA.

Ignoring the fact that we dumped tens of thousands of guns in the hands of anti communist guerrillas and Latin American governments (as did the Russians), less than 1/3 can be traced back to America at all. And that's only accounting for seized firearms, which is an even smaller number in relations to the total number of illegal firearms in their country. And not to split hairs, but the AR-15 is the semi-automatic version of the M16. It is still sold all over the world to police and military forces that do not need a fully automatic firearm.

Yes, it would not suprise me that weapons are also origionating from the Mexican military, but of the weapons they traced which was 1/3 of the total? Were traced back to the USA. Not the Mexican military.

So your "probably" incorrect.

And where did the other 2/3 come from? Fairy land?

 

[wiseones2cents]

Before I continue, I want you to be perfectly aware, this question perfectly illustrates your ignorance on the issue.

All this illustrates is that I am unfamiliar with FN. Nothing more, nothing less.
For a country to be manufacturing their military arms out side of the country,when they have the know how themselves is
illogical.

What happens if America was attacked? They would have to ship more weapons from Belgium?lol

I am pretty sure, America also produce their own arms. They are not that stupid.

FN is short for Fabrique Nationale, a Belgian arms company that has been in operations for over 100 years. They currently hold the contracts to ALL U.S. Military small arms with a few exceptions (Beretta has the pistol contract and there are several .50 caliber rifle makers)

Here is a list of arms manufacturers in the USA.They include M16 and colt AR-15.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers[/ame]

The AR-15 is made by so many companies I cannot even list them here. And where do you get the idea that it is so popular for gangs to use? They're bulky, expensive (especially Colts), and attract a lot of unwanted attention. By my count they're only used in 0.18% of all violent crime, though admittedly this is an American statistic, no a Mexican one.

Yes though these ones were traced to the USA.

Bulky? Apparently they were popular because they are light weight.

These seem to be the main guns.

In Northern Mexico, high-powered American weapons have enabled drug cartels to control whole territories. There is the Colt AR-15, the civilian version of the military M-16. And there is the "cuernos de chivo" — Spanish for goat horns . . . the 30-shot curved banana clip of the AK-47.

You also have the Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifles which seems to be comning from the USA.

Then there is the Five-Seven semi-automatic pistol. Which is manufactured by FN, though many law enforcement agencies in the USA are armed with this gun. I highly DOUBT they are coming directly from Belgium.

You're right, why would they risk their entire business and the lives of their employees with a list of felonies to make the ATF explode into orgasm?

Have you ever been rich? You would do everything in your power to remain rich, even if it was illegal.

Yeah, bad days for Colt, but in the end it was their own fault for buying into their own hype. They made a product that wasn't worth the asking price, both on the civilian and military markets. FN, however, saw an opportunity and took it.

Exactly. So they found another market. A black market.....

Ignoring the fact that we dumped tens of thousands of guns in the hands of anti communist guerrillas and Latin American governments (as did the Russians), less than 1/3 can be traced back to America at all. And that's only accounting for seized firearms, which is an even smaller number in relations to the total number of illegal firearms in their country. And not to split hairs, but the AR-15 is the semi-automatic version of the M16. It is still sold all over the world to police and military forces that do not need a fully automatic firearm.

Most guns that are being used are modern. They say the cartels are armed better than the enforcement agencies.

Not less than 1/3. MORE than 1/3. And of that 1/3 that were traced? 90% of them origionated from the USA.

The other 2/3's weren't traced at all. But like I said. I am willing to wager that a large number of the remaining 2/3 origionated in the USA also.

And where did the other 2/3 come from? Fairy land?

We dont know. They weren't traced. I guess it takes alot of time and money and they didnt bother tracing them all. Especially after tracing 1/3 of them and seeing 90% of the guns origionated in the USA. Its safe to say that a large part of the 2/3 remaining also origionated from the USA.

In conclusion.The fact of the mater remains, that a large number of guns used by drug cartels are origionating from the USA.

And this has to stop. And that ends the gun debate! As the article states? It is hard moving things into the USA. Though it is too easy moving guns south.

Time to tighten up the borders until this menace in Mexico is dealt with.

I say it is time to wage a TRUE war on drugs. Attack the source(crops), cut off the arms supply/ammunition, and then go after the gangs.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

In conclusion.The fact of the mater remains, that a large number of guns used by drug cartels are origionating from the USA.

And this has to stop. And that ends the gun debate! As the article states? It is hard moving things into the USA. Though it is too easy moving guns south.

you are still showing your ignorance on how guns are obtained within the US and also the circumstances of the traced guns from mexico. We don't know if they were handpicked to show the 90% figure or not, though i'm sure you'd like to just assume that because it sides with your bias.

Time to tighten up the borders until this menace in Mexico is dealt with.

I say it is time to wage a TRUE war on drugs. Attack the source(crops), cut off the arms supply/ammunition, and then go after the gangs.

again, showing your ignorance. how tight would you like to make the border? Maybe an iron wall that checks everything going out, but is totally porous for things/people coming in?

 

[wiseones2cents]

you are still showing your ignorance on how guns are obtained within the US and also the circumstances of the traced guns from mexico. We don't know if they were handpicked to show the 90% figure or not, though i'm sure you'd like to just assume that because it sides with your bias.

The only person showing ignorance and denial is you.The article CLEARLY tells you how it is being done. A number of them are bought at gun shows.

The article CLEARLY states that 10,000 guns that were traced origionated from the USA. And you keep flapping your lips saying that no guns are coming from USA.

And you clearly are making an assumption that they were handpicked. When fact check clearly states, they assumed themselves that was the case and were MISTAKEN.

I know enough about the criminal world to know most illegal arms origionate from gun crazy USA.

again, showing your ignorance. how tight would you like to make the border? Maybe an iron wall that checks everything going out, but is totally porous for things/people coming in?

It wouldn't hurt to increase border patrols.

And I will repeat, I say it is time to wage a TRUE war on drugs. Attack the source(crops), cut off the arms supply/ammunition, and then go after the gangs.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

The only person showing ignorance and denial is you.The article CLEARLY tells you how it is being done. A number of them are bought at gun shows.

This is impossible. There is no frickin way a private seller, or a number of private sellers, can sell THAT MANY privately owned AR-15s, or other 'assault' weapons and NOT raise a red flag to someone. there is no way possible.

The article CLEARLY states that 10,000 guns that were traced origionated from the USA. And you keep flapping your lips saying that no guns are coming from USA.

now you're reading something i clearly didn't say. I have no doubt that some guns are coming from the USA. I just doubt that out of the totality of them, that 90% come from the US.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

you are still showing your ignorance on how guns are obtained within the US and also the circumstances of the traced guns from mexico. We don't know if they were handpicked to show the 90% figure or not, though i'm sure you'd like to just assume that because it sides with your bias.



again, showing your ignorance. how tight would you like to make the border? Maybe an iron wall that checks everything going out, but is totally porous for things/people coming in?

Back on the old AOL board, a poster showed how Canada had granted China unlimited control to one of their ports and also showed information of how China was using the port to bring in AK-47's.
Since Canada isn't known for being a huge gun market, I wonder who China intended to sell them to??

 

[wiseones2cents]

This is impossible. There is no frickin way a private seller, or a number of private sellers, can sell THAT MANY privately owned AR-15s, or other 'assault' weapons and NOT raise a red flag to someone. there is no way possible.

A little here a little there, and plus, not all were AR-15's. Plus if the guy and his supplier were crooked, there definitely can be a way.

now you're reading something i clearly didn't say. I have no doubt that some guns are coming from the USA. I just doubt that out of the totality of them, that 90% come from the US.

And from what I read? I say that MOST guns are coming from the USA and something must be done.

Even if only "some" guns(which has proven to be WAYYYYY over 10,000) since those are only the ones confiscated or traced?That is WAYYYYY to many.

But the guns is a small part of the problem. The drugs is the main reason why they arm themselves and the main reason why they can afford to.

This is why going after crops is the priority.

Did you hear about the latest people in Mexico that were hung upside down and shot to death? These gangs are clearly out of control.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

And from what I read? I say that MOST guns are coming from the USA and something must be done.

why are we responsible for their border issue?

Did you hear about the latest people in Mexico that were hung upside down and shot to death? These gangs are clearly out of control.

I also know that they were unarmed. it's easy to butcher and terrorize a town of civilians who aren't allowed to have weapons.

 

[wiseones2cents]

why are we responsible for their border issue?

Fair enough. Though now there are more cross border shootings and kidnappings in the USA. Not to mention these networks have worked their way right into America.

I also know that they were unarmed. it's easy to butcher and terrorize a town of civilians who aren't allowed to have weapons.

You never get the point? These criminals are out of control and it is affecting America directly and indirectly. By money being drained from the American economy and drug addiction. Lives are being ruined.

Time to stomp out the Cocaine and Heroin trafficking in Mexico and South America.