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WinterBorn
Guest
Avoidance of facts, per usual.
Logging on Private Property
- Thread starter cawacko
- Start date
Avoidance of facts, per usual.
What facts? That a mere 14% of forest lands can be used commercially? Tell us oh factual one, what was the percentage prior to the knee-jerk enviro restrictions that have wrecked havoc the last 25+ years?
I live within 75 miles of 7...yes 7 mills that have had to either close down on production or cut back by up to 2/3s...I'd say that's pretty fucking devastating to the timber industry.
Billy the Great Khan
Uwaa OmO
What sort of timber? And when did they close? It may be connected with the huge decline in building.
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WinterBorn
Guest
Ok nimwit, I did not say that the timber industry was a growth industry. (pun fully intended)
What my facts addressed was the claim that it was all but impossible to get american timber. His continued insistance that virtually all our lumber was imported is clearly nonsense.
I grew up in within 50 miles of a good deal of clear-cut forest land. The subsequent erosion clogged numerous streams and even interfered with navigation on the Warrior River on several occasions. The regulations that required that the timber companies restore the land and restrictions aimed at stopping the long term damages were what put many of the small logging and timber companies out of business. That and the fact that they were bought out by major timber interests.
Now, please let us know if the trees have stopped being cut, or did the bigger timber companies pay better for the trees and so the mills went under?
Here is one of them, and no, it had nothing to do with the recession.
"Grays Harbor used to be a major economic center for the timber and wood products industry. Major pulp and paper factories were supplied by large power transmission lines, railyards and shipyards. But regulation of forests has drastically reduced the timber industry and the Harbor is now economically depressed relative to the rest of the state."
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WinterBorn
Guest
Or it may be the growth of a handful of huge timber companies. They bought timber for better prices, and so the smaller companies couldn't come up with the raw materials to keep their mills running.
No, what you did lil' miss priss, was state that enviro whack jobs have not devastated the timber industry. The timber industry USED to be a growth industry.
And your pathetic example is SO typical. Being anti enviro whacko does not mean being anti sensible regulating.
Billy the Great Khan
Uwaa OmO
Another valid possibility.
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WinterBorn
Guest
Since you seem bound and determined to read what you want to read, regardless of what is actually written, my responses will likely not matter.
But I most certainly did not make any claim about the enviro wackos not devastating the timber industry.
I also did not make any claims that the timber industry was anything different than it is.
What I argued was that the facts do not support the rants that SM aimed at all environmentalists.
Many of those environmentalists have gone way over the line. But others have done noble work that actually saved parts of the timber industry.
"The US Timber Industry has not been destroyed by the environmentalists. "
SM made it clear he was talking about the enviro whaco's prior to your statement...so go split your short hairs ifin it gets your rocks off sissy man.
OF COURSE we have have been discussing those idiotic unneccesary ridiculously over-reaching enviro whack job policies that have devastated the fucking timber industry dork breath...and yes I mean dick breath
No one said that timber is no longer harvested you hair splitting mamsey pamsey man...but that it has been devastated; no longer a growth fucking industry...capeche?
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WinterBorn
Guest
"The US Timber Industry has not been destroyed by the environmentalists. "
SM made it clear he was talking about the enviro whaco's prior to your statement...so go split your short hairs ifin it gets your rocks off sissy man.
OF COURSE we have have been discussing those idiotic unneccesary ridiculously over-reaching enviro whack job policies that have devastated the fucking timber industry dork breath...and yes I mean dick breath
No one said that timber is no longer harvested you hair splitting mamsey pamsey man...but that it has been devastated; no longer a growth fucking industry...capeche?
First of all, since the US is the world's leading producer of softwood and hardwood lumber, saying that the industry has been destroyed is a flat out lie.
Next, what SM said was:
“Go down to your local lumber yard and look at the pallets of dimension lumber in the rear lot. You'll see stuff from Canada, South America, even fucking Europe, but you won't see much US lumber.”
“So tress will get harvested, just not in the US. Along with our energy and manufacturing, we import most of it, and export US dollars while our jobs go overseas and our economy is in the toilet.”
“Its easier to get Honduras mahogany here than Western redwood. Shit, I haven't even seen the stuff on a rack in 35 years.”
“And Southern pine is one of the best species for structural lumber, yet unless you buy treated or engineered lumber you'll get spruce-pine-fir from Canada or Europe. North Carolina is one of the nations top lumber producers but you can't find it at most lumber yards.”
That was obviously proven inaccurate by the information that I found and posted.
You bloviating cow, I never said "destroyed", you did! I said devastated! From a purely economic JOBS fucking point of view it WAS...now happy new year you fat soft doughboy dweeb
You go into any depressed logging town that used to be a boom town and tell out-of-work timber folks your stupid stories.
Being an ass really suits you.
You go into any depressed logging town that used to be a boom town and tell out-of-work timber folks your stupid stories.
Being an ass really suits you.
Good Luck
New member
8 minor and three major lumber mills shut down in the state of Montana over the last decade. That's over half of Montana's lumber industry - gone. And there have been major layoffs in most of those lumber lumber mills still operating. And, of course, fewer mills running at lower production mean fewer jobs in the timber industry, from cutters to truckers.
Between repeated and tiring eco moron lawsuits delaying production and driving production costs through the roof, and the effects of NAFTA, it is now cheaper for Canadian mills to sell their lumber to the NW construction industry. I don't know about Asian or European imports. I would not doubt Asian imports could be cheaper than locally produced lumber, I do doubt European imports would be.
The fact is the lumber industry is suffering quite badly - and the primary cause is eco morons thinking they have the right to interfere with people's private property, and stupid assed liberal courts agreeing with them. Plum Creek Lumber in Mt owns several million acres of forest lands. (Actually it is the BN, Plum Creeks parent company that owns the lands, but that's splitting hairs.) The last time they went to harvest timber in the St. Mary's Lake region, it cost them over 4 million dollars in lawsuits before they were allowed to harvest their own trees on their own land, planted by Plum Creek after the last time they harvested the area. After a harvest of 65 million board feet, the lawsuits by themselves added a little over 6 cents per board foot to production costs. While that may not sound like much, it equates to an additional $.30 to buy a single 2X4 stud at your local home improvement center. Want to build a nice 12X12 storage shed, plan on over $50 of the costs being directly related to eco moron law suits. It is ridiculous beyond reason.
I see these eco morons protesting something a lumber company want to do, carrying their cardboard signs mounted to 1X2 and 2X2 boards from Canada, and I want to puke. Preferably in their cotton blend shirt pockets.
Between repeated and tiring eco moron lawsuits delaying production and driving production costs through the roof, and the effects of NAFTA, it is now cheaper for Canadian mills to sell their lumber to the NW construction industry. I don't know about Asian or European imports. I would not doubt Asian imports could be cheaper than locally produced lumber, I do doubt European imports would be.
The fact is the lumber industry is suffering quite badly - and the primary cause is eco morons thinking they have the right to interfere with people's private property, and stupid assed liberal courts agreeing with them. Plum Creek Lumber in Mt owns several million acres of forest lands. (Actually it is the BN, Plum Creeks parent company that owns the lands, but that's splitting hairs.) The last time they went to harvest timber in the St. Mary's Lake region, it cost them over 4 million dollars in lawsuits before they were allowed to harvest their own trees on their own land, planted by Plum Creek after the last time they harvested the area. After a harvest of 65 million board feet, the lawsuits by themselves added a little over 6 cents per board foot to production costs. While that may not sound like much, it equates to an additional $.30 to buy a single 2X4 stud at your local home improvement center. Want to build a nice 12X12 storage shed, plan on over $50 of the costs being directly related to eco moron law suits. It is ridiculous beyond reason.
I see these eco morons protesting something a lumber company want to do, carrying their cardboard signs mounted to 1X2 and 2X2 boards from Canada, and I want to puke. Preferably in their cotton blend shirt pockets.
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Here’s the problem with message board simpletons (and I don’t mean you cawacko, I mean some of the other ridiculous, uninformed comments made in this thread).
A lot of message boarder who don’t know the first thing about a topic (like logging) are quick to jump in with arm-chair expert analysis, and with simple-minded, declarative and conclusive statements like “tree are just a crop, like corn…..let the f*ckers cut ‘em all down if they want”. This is a statement only possible from someone who is completely uniformed about logging. And probably clueless about the natural world at large; presumably only someone who is couch-bound and never gets outdoors could make a statement like that.
Here’s a tip: your rights to do whatever you want on your private property end when they infringe on the public commons, or the rights of others.
Logging isn’t a simple issue, merely involving tree hugging lefties versus robber-baron rightys. For anyone even remotely informed about history, natural sciences, and the environment, knows there are rock solid, and crystal clear reasons why logging has to be regulated. Forests aren’t merely “crops”. They are an ecosystem that plays a pivotal role in water quality, air quality, erosion, and wildlife habitat. Even my dim witted, deer hunting relatives know the importance of old growth forest, tree canopy, and soil stability as it relates to their deer hunting and fishing hobbies. They wouldn’t be idiotic enough to proclaim that all forests and all private properties are just like crops, and could be clear cut on a whim by a property owner. Evidently, there’s a ton of couch-potato, message board armchair experts who spend their lives indoors and don’t have the foggiest clue about the natural world works. Or how forest and soil are intricately tied to air quality, water quality, or to hunting and fishing.
Here’s another history tip. Is it even conceivable to rightys why the disastrous dust bowl in the 1930s happened? And why FDR established a program of tree planting and reforestation by the CCC? Farmers understand the consequences of unfettered clear cutting of trees and forest, even if soft, pasty white couch potato, message board arm experts don’t.
Is it possible that message board armchair experts are unaware that the environment on someone’s property doesn’t exist in a vacuum; that the environmental interactions, parameters, and wildlife don’t just stop at the edge of their property? Is it possible for Rontards and wingnuts to understand that the air, the water, the wildlife on their property doesn’t belong to them, and that forest, soil, water, and air all interact in complex and fluid way both on their property and off it? Do you know what happens to a creek, to a farm, or to air quality if private property owners were given free license to clear cut or log the shit out of the forests on their property, without any thought to proper management and mitigation measures?
Do I know the details of what these republicans want to do on their property? No, logging is a complex issue, I doubt they want to destroy the environment, and I try not to play armchair expert based on two paragraphs of a news article. But, to be clear cawacko, logging isn’t just some harmless and benign activity. If done right, it can be both economically sound and environmentally beneficial. But it would be awesome if just occasionally, to run across a thread where people who know absolutely nothing about a topic would just stay out of it instead of feeling compelled to chime in with some uniformed, nonsensical drivel.
Ahhh the expert bloviator of all bloviators weighs in~~~
Again, no one I know of, thinks that intelligent policies were not neccesary. It's the ridiculous inane enviro policies that devastated an entire industry.
You come on here and wish to sound like the voice of reason? Really? Ending clear cutting on steep slopes is an intelligent policy. Stupid policies are those that have prevented good forest managemnet whch include thinning, road creation, and harvesting. The devastation to jobs and communities because of knee-jerk tree hugging idealogue's has also resulted in some of the worst fire seasons.
Again, no one I know of, thinks that intelligent policies were not neccesary. It's the ridiculous inane enviro policies that devastated an entire industry.
You come on here and wish to sound like the voice of reason? Really? Ending clear cutting on steep slopes is an intelligent policy. Stupid policies are those that have prevented good forest managemnet whch include thinning, road creation, and harvesting. The devastation to jobs and communities because of knee-jerk tree hugging idealogue's has also resulted in some of the worst fire seasons.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
He's made the strawman into an art form. LOLYou bloviating cow, I never said "destroyed", you did! I said devastated! From a purely economic JOBS fucking point of view it WAS...now happy new year you fat soft doughboy dweeb
You go into any depressed logging town that used to be a boom town and tell out-of-work timber folks your stupid stories.
Being an ass really suits you.
DamnYankee
Loyal to the end
Actually, I probably know much more about the environment than you do, being educated in post graduate in environmental engineering, and have worked with farmers and foresters many years.
TuTu Monroe
A Realist
Actually, I probably know much more about the environment than you do, being educated in post graduate in environmental engineering, and have worked with farmers and foresters many years.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
Society has a right to regulate private property to protect forests. You knew about the regulations when you bought the property, deal with it. Environment comes before your selfish idiocy.
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WinterBorn
Guest
Actually, I probably know much more about the environment than you do, being educated in post graduate in environmental engineering, and have worked with farmers and foresters many years.
Funny that you know so little about lumber. If you can't find american grown lumber, you must be shopping in some strange places.