This Trump Indictment Shouldn’t Stand

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In my view, NONE of the Trump indictments have legal standing. But that is now for our courts and eventually, Supreme Court to decide.

Here, it is not even clear that Smith has alleged anything that the law forbids. The indictment relates in detail Trump’s deceptions, but that doesn’t mean they constitute criminal fraud. As the Supreme Court reaffirmed just a few weeks ago, fraud in federal criminal law is a scheme to swindle victims out of money or tangible property. Mendacious rhetoric in seeking to retain political office is damnable — and, again, impeachable — but it’s not criminal fraud, although that is what Smith has charged. Indeed, assuming a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump hadn’t actually convinced himself that the election was stolen from him (good luck with that), hyperbole and even worse are protected political speech.

As for obstruction, Americans, presidents included, have a right to attempt to influence Congress, even based on dubious or imagined evidence. To establish obstruction, Smith must prove that Trump’s efforts at persuasion were corrupt — again, in the sense that he knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit. The concept of corruption is meant to reach clearly criminal conduct, such as evidence manipulation or witness tampering. It has never been understood to reach wrong-headed legal theories. To apply it that way, as Smith proposes, would chill not only political speech, but the constitutional right of a defendant to mount a legal defense.

Finally, Smith is charging Trump with a civil-rights violation, on the theory that he sought to counteract the votes of Americans in contested states and based on a post–Civil War statute designed to punish violent intimidation and forcible attacks against blacks attempting to exercise their right to vote. What Trump did, though reprehensible, bears no relation to what the statute covers.

In his press conference announcing the charges, Smith — for good reason — did not dwell on his questionable charges. He instead emphasized the Capitol riot. Anyone witnessing his remarks would have believed that Trump had incited a forcible attack on the Capitol. Of course, Smith has not charged him with any such thing because he doesn’t have the evidence to tie him criminally to the riot. The prosecutor was making a political statement, clearly aimed at swaying the jury pool in blue Washington, D.C., where the Justice Department brags daily about having charged more than a thousand rioters.

There is a reason Smith does not have a solid statutory crime to rely on. To criminalize the conduct for which he seeks to convict Trump, Congress would have to write sweeping laws that could easily be wielded by one party against another to punish objectionable political conduct. That would undermine both electoral politics and the rule of law.

This indictment shouldn’t stand.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/08/this-trump-indictment-shouldnt-stand/
 
Georgetown University Law Professor Jonathan Turley

It’s really approaching the urban legend status because he’s not charged with incitement,” he said. “He’s not charged with insurrection. He’s not charged with seditious conspiracy. He’s not charged with all of those things the Democrats impeached him on the second time. So they’re really bigfooting the Constitution here. It’s not there. But the question is, what is here? And I have to tell you, this is pretty thin soup, in my view. They have a colossal constitutional problem that they will have to overcome from the outset. They have to establish all of these linchpins, that he not only believed that — the truth of the matter, that he understood he was lying, but then he played a criminal role in getting these other individuals to take the steps mentioned in the indictment.”

“That is a very difficult case to prove, and I think part of the dynamic that we’re seeing is that you can’t just pursue a president from pillar to post across the country without people beginning to tune out. I mean, look, this day would be called a life-changing experience for most people,
 
Georgetown University Law Professor Jonathan Turley

It’s really approaching the urban legend status because he’s not charged with incitement,” he said. “He’s not charged with insurrection. He’s not charged with seditious conspiracy. He’s not charged with all of those things the Democrats impeached him on the second time. So they’re really bigfooting the Constitution here. It’s not there. But the question is, what is here? And I have to tell you, this is pretty thin soup, in my view. They have a colossal constitutional problem that they will have to overcome from the outset. They have to establish all of these linchpins, that he not only believed that — the truth of the matter, that he understood he was lying, but then he played a criminal role in getting these other individuals to take the steps mentioned in the indictment.”

“That is a very difficult case to prove, and I think part of the dynamic that we’re seeing is that you can’t just pursue a president from pillar to post across the country without people beginning to tune out. I mean, look, this day would be called a life-changing experience for most people,

This is the theater of the absurd now. I suspect the indictments will keep on coming. He will be indicted for standing up, then sitting down. He will be indicted for walking then riding in a car. Maybe they'll find a couple other gold digging whores that trump looked at 30 years ago and sue him for not raping them. These nitwits are completely fucking insane. It's like they all have syphilis of the brain.
 
This is the theater of the absurd now. I suspect the indictments will keep on coming. He will be indicted for standing up, then sitting down. He will be indicted for walking then riding in a car. Maybe they'll find a couple other gold digging whores that trump looked at 30 years ago and sue him for not raping them. These nitwits are completely fucking insane. It's like they all have syphilis of the brain.

It's not merely insane and absurd, it is borderline lunacy and threatens our very Democracy. Democrats are everything they accuse Trump and his supporters of.
 
It's not merely insane and absurd, it is borderline lunacy and threatens our very Democracy. Democrats are everything they accuse Trump and his supporters of.

I agree they are a national security threat. The democratic party is a terrorist organization.
 
Just to be clear, Turley is no fan of Trump and neither is Alan Dershowitz. They are honest legal professors.

Trump indictment would ‘bulldoze’ the First Amendment if it succeeds: Turley

The latest indictment of former President Trump threatens to destroy the First Amendment and give the federal government the unprecedented power to criminalize political lies, constitutional law professor and Fox News contributor Jonathan Turley warned Saturday.

In an op-ed for The Hill, Turley wrote that Smith’s indictment essentially charges Trump for spreading "lies that there had been outcome-determinative fraud in the election," which he said is a dangerous proposition for the First Amendment.

"In order to secure convictions for this, Special Counsel Jack Smith would need to bulldoze through not just the First Amendment but also existing case law holding that even false statements are protected," he wrote.

Specifically, Turley said Smith’s charges assert that Trump knew the statements he made about the 2020 election were false and said if Trump does believe he won, "the indictment collapses."

In an effort to show Trump knew he lost legitimately, the indictment explains that many people advised him that he lost. Turley said Trump sought out people who said he won but that he is allowed to do this.

"Trump is allowed to seek out enablers who tell him what he wants to hear," Turley wrote. "All presidents do this. (Joe Biden, for example, ignored virtually unanimous legal opinion and relied upon a single law professor’s say-so to justify an obviously unconstitutional executive action that later had to be reversed.)"

Turley also warned that successfully charging Trump in this way sets up the "dangerous" precedent of giving the government the power to determine what’s true and what isn’t.

"There is no limiting principle to this indictment," Turley wrote in The Hill. "The government would choose between which politicians are lying and which are lying without cause."

Turley said there is a "constitutional problem" with trying to "criminalize lies" in this way. He said a 2012 Supreme Court case, United States v. Alvarez, found that it’s unconstitutional to criminalize lies and that the court recognized that ruling otherwise would give the government "broad censorial power unprecedented in this court’s cases or in our constitutional tradition."

"So, even assuming that Smith can prove Trump lied, there would still be constitutional barriers to criminalizing his false statements," Turley wrote.


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-indictment-bulldoze-first-amendment-succeeds-turley
 
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Shocking, Rich Lowery, a Fox favorite, doesn’t think the indictment against Trump should stand

As Lowery himself states, Smith has to prove Trump “knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit,” which given the testimony of Pence and others close to Trump, is doable
 
Alan Dershowitz pushes back on new Trump charges

The main point of principle that I really want to get over is that, and this applies to both parties, the leading candidate against the incumbent president should never be prosecuted by the attorney general of the president, of course, unless the case against him is overwhelming and beyond any dispute.

I like Bill Barr. He's a good man, but I think he's just dead wrong about that. Of course, this is a free speech case. Everything involves his exercise of free speech and not only First Amendment free speech, but also the First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievances. The way you protest an election is to come up with an alternate slate of electors. That was done in 1960. That was the Tilden Hayes election. That's been done throughout history. And a court in Hawaii said that's the right way to do it. You know, it's interesting that the indictment is based on lies, and the indictment itself contains a blatant lie by Jack Smith. He describes the speech of January 6, a speech that I think was terrible, never should have been made. But he describes the speech in the indictment and deliberately and willfully leaves out the keywords of the speech, namely that the president told his people to protest peacefully and patriotically. By leaving out those words, it's a lie by omission.

And under the standards set out in the indictment, you know, Jack Smith could be indicted. He could also be indicted, theoretically. It's not going to happen, obviously. … The Ku Klux Klan statute that says any people who conspire to deny somebody their constitutional rights is guilty of a crime. What if the Supreme Court ultimately rules, as distinguished from what Barr said, that everything that Trump did and said is protected by the First Amendment? That would mean that Jack Smith tried to deny Trump his constitutional rights in this indictment. I make that point not to argue that Jack Smith should be indicted. To make the point that the indictment is so broad, so wide, so all encompassing, it could include so much political conduct. You know, we have two presidents in our history. Of all of our presidents, only two have been called honest — Honest Abe, and Washington and the cherry tree. Does that mean that every other president has been dishonest? Probably. Probably every single one of them has told a fib to get elected or to stay in office, and we don't punish. We don't criminalize political lies, and the government is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump himself knew and believed that he had lost the election. I don't think anybody who knows Trump thinks that that's true. Trump talked himself into believing that he had won the election, and if that's the case, then there's no corrupt motive or intent.


https://www.foxnews.com/media/alan-...bill-barr-defense-trump-indictment-dead-wrong
 
And now we go from Lowery to Dershowitz, too funny, Dershowitz would tell anyone anything they wanted to hear if they paid him, last I knew his opinion’s worth had descended down to the likes of NewsMax and OAN, who’s next, Turley or McCarthy
 
Shocking, Rich Lowery, a Fox favorite, doesn’t think the indictment against Trump should stand

As Lowery himself states, Smith has to prove Trump “knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit,” which given the testimony of Pence and others close to Trump, is doable

So basically, he is arguing that Donald Trump is a complete fucking moron and it's up to Jack Smith to prove he isn't. That's where we are.
 
Shocking, Rich Lowery, a Fox favorite, doesn’t think the indictment against Trump should stand

As Lowery himself states, Smith has to prove Trump “knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit,” which given the testimony of Pence and others close to Trump, is doable

Shocking; it wasn't Rich Lowry dumbass.
 
And now we go from Lowery to Dershowitz, too funny, Dershowitz would tell anyone anything they wanted to hear if they paid him, last I knew his opinion’s worth had descended down to the likes of NewsMax and OAN, who’s next, Turley or McCarthy

Turley and Dershowitz are law professors. Dershowitz is a Democrat and does not support Trump nor voted for him dumbass.

Do you ever have anything but whiney thread trolling drivel to add to any debate? :palm:
 
And now we go from Lowery to Dershowitz, too funny, Dershowitz would tell anyone anything they wanted to hear if they paid him, last I knew his opinion’s worth had descended down to the likes of NewsMax and OAN, who’s next, Turley or McCarthy

So basically, he is arguing that Donald Trump is a complete fucking moron and it's up to Jack Smith to prove he isn't. That's where we are.

:lolup: Dumbest and Dumb Fuck trolling the thread in an echo chamber while avoiding any facts or arguments to the contrary.

200w.webp


200w.webp
 
You can always tell when TD is given brief access to a computer. They should really put a few more limits on his screen time. Maybe he can spend more time eating crayons and play doh.
 
Shocking; it wasn't Rich Lowry dumbass.

Ah pal, is not Lowery the chief editor of the National Review? And was not the opinion piece put out by the editors of the National Review?

Duh

You don’t even know anything about the sources you quote let alone what they say
 
Turley and Dershowitz are law professors. Dershowitz is a Democrat and does not support Trump nor voted for him dumbass.

Do you ever have anything but whiney thread trolling drivel to add to any debate? :palm:

There are millions of law professors, and those two make their money being media whores than actual professors, and as I said, Dershowitz is anything anyone wants to pay him to be, why he has sunk to the lower levels of infotainment

And you didn’t “debate” your own post, as I said, actually Lowery authored, Smith has to prove Trump “knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit,” which given the testimony of Pence and others close to Trump, is doable, to which you offered zero rebuttal
 
In my view, NONE of the Trump indictments have legal standing. But that is now for our courts and eventually, Supreme Court to decide.

Here, it is not even clear that Smith has alleged anything that the law forbids. The indictment relates in detail Trump’s deceptions, but that doesn’t mean they constitute criminal fraud. As the Supreme Court reaffirmed just a few weeks ago, fraud in federal criminal law is a scheme to swindle victims out of money or tangible property. Mendacious rhetoric in seeking to retain political office is damnable — and, again, impeachable — but it’s not criminal fraud, although that is what Smith has charged. Indeed, assuming a prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump hadn’t actually convinced himself that the election was stolen from him (good luck with that), hyperbole and even worse are protected political speech.

As for obstruction, Americans, presidents included, have a right to attempt to influence Congress, even based on dubious or imagined evidence. To establish obstruction, Smith must prove that Trump’s efforts at persuasion were corrupt — again, in the sense that he knew his badgering and lobbying had no factual or legal merit. The concept of corruption is meant to reach clearly criminal conduct, such as evidence manipulation or witness tampering. It has never been understood to reach wrong-headed legal theories. To apply it that way, as Smith proposes, would chill not only political speech, but the constitutional right of a defendant to mount a legal defense.

Finally, Smith is charging Trump with a civil-rights violation, on the theory that he sought to counteract the votes of Americans in contested states and based on a post–Civil War statute designed to punish violent intimidation and forcible attacks against blacks attempting to exercise their right to vote. What Trump did, though reprehensible, bears no relation to what the statute covers.

In his press conference announcing the charges, Smith — for good reason — did not dwell on his questionable charges. He instead emphasized the Capitol riot. Anyone witnessing his remarks would have believed that Trump had incited a forcible attack on the Capitol. Of course, Smith has not charged him with any such thing because he doesn’t have the evidence to tie him criminally to the riot. The prosecutor was making a political statement, clearly aimed at swaying the jury pool in blue Washington, D.C., where the Justice Department brags daily about having charged more than a thousand rioters.

There is a reason Smith does not have a solid statutory crime to rely on. To criminalize the conduct for which he seeks to convict Trump, Congress would have to write sweeping laws that could easily be wielded by one party against another to punish objectionable political conduct. That would undermine both electoral politics and the rule of law.

This indictment shouldn’t stand.

HORSESHIT!

Next!
 
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