NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

[Dutch Uncle]

The mines Russia is going to leave behind are probably going to kill more civilians than cluster mentions.

I think it took decades to demine Cambodia.


I leave it to the Ukrainian government to decide what to do. They are in an existential fight for their existence; they are under no legal obligation to avoid using these weapons since they aren't treaty signatories; the Ukranians will only be using it on their own territory not somebody else's sovereign land; and I suspect most Ukrainian citizens are willing to accept the risk if it helps drive the Russian Invaders Invaders back.

Agreed. Still, the "moral high ground" thing counts for something. Lowering ourselves to the level of the fucking Russians and their mercenaries makes us equal to the fucking Russians and their mercenaries. No better, no worse. Worse, according to people like Tink.

The Ukrainians are free to defend their country. They are not free to demand we give them nukes, cluster bombs, biological weapons, etc.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

You hate America, Tink. You support Russia's attack on Ukraine. You clearly see what you want to see.

No doubt the Ukrainians are pissed. I'd be cutting off the heads of invaders myself.

Ukraine is a shithole, one of the most corrupt nations on the planet involved in the drug trade and child trafficking.

They are run by mafia and completely corrupted so yes, I hope they go under and go under hard.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Ukraine is a shithole, one of the most corrupt nations on the planet involved in the drug trade and child trafficking.

They are run by mafia and completely corrupted so yes, I hope they go under and go under hard.

Compared to the US? Maybe. Compared to Russia? Not so much. The fact you attack both the US and Ukraine while defending Russia at every turn says all I need to know about your character, Tink.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Tinkerpeach]

Compared to the US? Maybe. Compared to Russia? Not so much. The fact you attack both the US and Ukraine while defending Russia at every turn says all I need to know about your character, Tink.

I've never attacked the US, now you are just making shit up.

Why do you have such racism against Irish people?

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. Still, the "moral high ground" thing counts for something. Lowering ourselves to the level of the fucking Russians and their mercenaries makes us equal to the fucking Russians and their mercenaries. No better, no worse. Worse, according to people like Tink.

The Ukrainians are free to defend their country. They are not free to demand we give them nukes, cluster bombs, biological weapons, etc.

International law and the laws of just war are definitely a goal to strive for.

Maybe one good thing that will come out of this war is Russia will be convinced to join the international treaty on cluster weapons.

But I doubt that will happen if they continue to use their own cluster munitions with impunity.

Probably the only reason there was an international chemical weapons ban treaty after WW1 is because after the Germans initiated chemical warfare, the French and British developed their own chemical weapons and gave the Germans a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

International law and the laws of just war are definitely a goal to strive for.

Maybe one good thing that will come out of this war is Russia will be convinced to join the international treaty on cluster weapons.

But I doubt that will happen if they continue to use their own cluster munitions with impunity.

Probably the only reason there was an international chemical weapons ban treaty after WW1 is because after the Germans initiated chemical warfare, the French and British developed their own chemical weapons and gave the Germans a taste of their own medicine.

Agreed on all. My point is that the US can help Ukraine defend their nation while remaining on the moral high ground. The main problem? Cost. Trumpers are already whining about the cost of supporting Ukraine. Cluster munitions are cheaper than F-16s and M-1 tanks.

IMO, Biden should use this issue to arm twist our allies in NATO to step up with more money.

TBH, one of the few things Trump did that was good was twisting NATO's arm to carry more of their share of the load. There'd be no reason to have US troops in Europe if the Euros paid for their own defense. Of course, Trump being Trump, he went too far in dividing us from NATO, but I suspect that was for business reasons for his buddy Vlad.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I've never attacked the US, now you are just making shit up.

Why do you have such racism against Irish people?

Disagreed, Tink. You do it all the time. You're clearly anti-American and I doubt you are an American citizen.

I don't like Nazi lovers or anti-American foreigners. If it was up to me, the Aussies on this forum would be in prison for wife-beating, the Russians would be sent to Siberia for supporting Putin and the Brits living in Thailand would be arrested by the Royal Thai Police.

 

[Controlled Opposition]

We are sending billions of dollars to the most corrupt nation in Europe. Ukraine had been shelling ethnic Russians since 2014. What's more, the Neo- Nazis rule Ukraine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

While I have no problem with helping the Ukrainians kick out the Russian invaders, dead or alive, I agree with our NATO allies about the problems of sending cluster bombs into the region. Yes, the Russians are already doing so just like they are committing war crimes against civilians, but it moves the US further off the moral high ground. Biden should reconsider this decision.


https://news.yahoo.com/nato-allies-criticize-us-move-175523049.html
NATO allies criticize US move to send cluster bombs to Ukraine

Agreed. Especially when we, ourselves, who have continued to use cluster munitions even when other countries have banned them, stopped using them after the Iraq War. No reason we should be giving them to anyone.

 

[Althea]

They are all good, legitimate reasons to send Ukraine cluster munitions. However, there's a "moral high ground" aspect to war, especially the aftermath. The United States still has the stain of committing war crimes under GW Bush. His actions dimmed the "Shining City on a Hill".

Yes. Because Bush murdered innocents in his blood for oil campaign. Putin is doing the same thing. I believe defending innocent civilians at any cost keeps the moral high ground intact, especially if they aren't used in Russian civilian neighborhoods.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Yes. Because Bush murdered innocents in his blood for oil campaign. Putin is doing the same thing. I believe defending innocent civilians at any cost keeps the moral high ground intact, especially if they aren't used in Russian civilian neighborhoods.

Russia has been very careful to mitigate Ukrainian civilian casualties.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am on many "alternative" news sources where I have access to all sorts of videos of atrocities, some very horrible, but I have yet to see these hundreds of atrocities committed by Russian forces.

I do have a video of a Ukranian soldier beheading a Russian soldier however. Cut off his head while the guy was praying with a knife.

The actual facts on beheading: https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/11/europe/beheading-videos-ukraine-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

 

[Gondwanaland]

Russia has been very careful to mitigate Ukrainian civilian casualties.

By bombing refugee centers? Spare us your cunty bullshit, you Putin cock-whore

 

[Cypress]

Agreed on all. My point is that the US can help Ukraine defend their nation while remaining on the moral high ground. The main problem? Cost. Trumpers are already whining about the cost of supporting Ukraine. Cluster munitions are cheaper than F-16s and M-1 tanks.

IMO, Biden should use this issue to arm twist our allies in NATO to step up with more money.

TBH, one of the few things Trump did that was good was twisting NATO's arm to carry more of their share of the load. There'd be no reason to have US troops in Europe if the Euros paid for their own defense. Of course, Trump being Trump, he went too far in dividing us from NATO, but I suspect that was for business reasons for his buddy Vlad.

Minister of Defense Reznikov of Ukraine has said repeatedly that he has five principles for using these (cluster munitions) weapons. First of all, they'll only be used against the enemy in the intent of deoccupying Ukrainian territory of Russians. They will not use them in urban areas like the Russians have been doing. Ukraine will keep records of where the rounds are fired, and those records of those locations will be prioritized when the war is over for demining operations or rendering these munitions safe. So they're going to have to send crews into areas where these rounds have been fired to make sure that they are safely destroyed.


https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186...eighs-in-on-the-u-s-sending-cluster-munitions

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Minister of Defense Reznikov of Ukraine has said repeatedly that he has five principles for using these (cluster munitions) weapons. First of all, they'll only be used against the enemy in the intent of deoccupying Ukrainian territory of Russians. They will not use them in urban areas like the Russians have been doing. Ukraine will keep records of where the rounds are fired, and those records of those locations will be prioritized when the war is over for demining operations or rendering these munitions safe. So they're going to have to send crews into areas where these rounds have been fired to make sure that they are safely destroyed.


https://www.npr.org/2023/07/09/1186...eighs-in-on-the-u-s-sending-cluster-munitions

They are good weapons. Effective. I fully understand why the Ukrainians want them. Afterall, the Russians are using them too.

Still, I think we should consider the higher path.

 

[Nordberg]

Russia has been very careful to mitigate Ukrainian civilian casualties.

Yeah, they bomb cities, towns, hospitals, and villages being careful. They are absolutely not limiting casualties, especially for citizens. Russia is sending sophisticated and accirate missiles into Ukraine's homes, schools, hospitals and apartments.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Still, I think we should consider the higher path.

do you think higher path should include sealing all Russian funds in the finance system world wide until they completely withdraw from Ukraine?.......Why hasn't Biden done that?......

 

[T. A. Gardner]

This is an act of desperation on the part of the Joke administration. The Ukrainians are proving every bit as incompetent as the Russians in this war, and the fact they aren't winning means it drags on with the prospect that eventually the Russians will bleed them white and win. Thus, the Joke administration keeps sending more and more weapon systems there in hopes that some high tech thing will turn the tide when they haven't recognized you can't give 'cavemen' complex weapons and expect them to use them to good effect.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

do you think higher path should include sealing all Russian funds in the finance system world wide until they completely withdraw from Ukraine?.......Why hasn't Biden done that?......

I agree with financial sanctions, but they produce limited results.

Not a financial guy, but my understanding is that the US has a lot of sanctions on Russia. One problem is that the Chinese and Iranians, thanks to Trump breaking the treaty, are not playing by those rules. Sanctions, like boycotts, don't work unless the majority abide by the move.