Penny used a long known pro wrestling "sleeper" hold on Neely.

[NiftyNiblick]

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

Even pro wrestling has begun to call it by its real name, rear naked choke, due to the MMA influence.
They also have tap outs instead of verbal submissions thanks to MMA.

The athleticism in pro wrestling is real, I suppose,
but they no longer try to get the fans to suspend disbelief
and briefly react as if it were actual competition anymore.

They simulate actual felonies and nobody even gets suspended, much less arrested on the spot!

As a real boxer, I would have gone directly to jail if I jumped into the ring and interfered with an ongoing contest,
and even if somehow I didn't,
I'd have never gotten to box again. That's for certain.

But the modern fans are getting the video game wrestling that they enjoy, I guess.
It's a way for people to make a living,
and even I can dig the Japanese ladies when they're on..

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

So I hear you saying that it's okay to kill someone, as long as "the vast majority" agrees that it's okay.

 

[Damocles]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

 

[Hawkeye10]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

The right conversation is about how we as a society, to include the Right, have promoted mental illness, and how we refuse to change course.

 

[Althea]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

Good points. We don't care about the mentally ill since Reagan.

That's why so many of them are in prison. Or buying assault weapons before a killing spree.

Something has to change.

 

[Damocles]

Good points. We don't care about the mentally ill since Reagan.

That's why so many of them are in prison. Or buying assault weapons before a killing spree.

Something has to change.

I agree, but to abandon them was not the right answer, nor was leaving them in the state controlled "hospitals" (more like abattoirs)... The abuse is something of a legend among both true crime enthusiasts and the folks that believe in ghosts alike. Blaming this on Reagan is a bit like blaming the plague on Camus. Yeah, they both talked about the problem, but they weren't the cause of it.

I mean this image was from a contemporary time period to just before the closing of the "hospitals".... this was the United States of America... we MUST do better than this and stop blaming "racism" every time something like this happens. This poor guy needed treatment, instead he was returned to the streets, without a shred of help to live (what did AOC call it... oh yeah!) houseless getting constantly more ill...

 

[Nomad]

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

I think it might be more accurate to say that he STOPPED posing a physical threat AFTER several people had subdued him.

Prior to the subordination, he did pose a very possible physical threat.

I agree that it was negligent homicide on Penny's part, but I'm hoping they find extenuating circumstances and his punishment is in the more minimal range.

He made a bad decision to use that hold.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than I am and you probably weren't around back in the late 60's when wrestlers first started using the move. But I can tell you that, even though wrestling is somewhat choreographed and fake, it's not ALL choreographed and fake. I believe that the guys I saw back then who had that hold applied to them, as their faces turned bright red then purple prior to going limp, really were rendered unconscious.

Maybe by your time it had all gotten more fake like everything else has.

Also, to say that it was renamed FROM 'naked choke' to 'sleeper hold' and that doing so is somehow glorifying it, sounds pretty hysterical to me.

You've got the chronological order backwards.

It was called 'the sleeper hold' long before the more current, younger generation's ghetto influenced manner of speaking gave it that macho shithead sounding MMA title, 'naked choke'.

Also, I don't see how the name 'sleeper hold' supposedly "glorifies" it.

 

[Althea]

I agree, but to abandon them was not the right answer, nor was leaving them in the state controlled "hospitals" (more like abattoirs)... The abuse is something of a legend among both true crime enthusiasts and the folks that believe in ghosts alike. Blaming this on Reagan is a bit like blaming the plague on Camus. Yeah, they both talked about the problem, but they weren't the cause of it.

I mean this image was from a contemporary time period to just before the closing of the "hospitals".... this was the United States of America... we MUST do better than this and stop blaming "racism" every time something like this happens. This poor guy needed treatment, instead he was returned to the streets, without a shred of help to live (what did AOC call it... oh yeah!) houseless getting constantly more ill...

I was in high school in NY when Geraldo exposed the atrocities at Willowbrook. My friends and I used to volunteer for school credit at Rockland State. We know a lot more now than we did about mental illness back then, and the drugs are better.

Reagan did cut all Federal funding for institutions, which was the last nail in the coffin for the industry.

 

[Nomad]

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

That ^^^^^ is the main issue and the one which I hope the judge and jury take into account.

 

[Damocles]

I think it might be more accurate to say that he STOPPED posing a physical threat AFTER several people had subdued him.

Prior to the subordination, he did pose a very possible physical threat.

I agree that it was negligent homicide on Penny's part, but I'm hoping they find extenuating circumstances and his punishment is in the more minimal range.

He made a bad decision to use that hold.



I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than I am and you probably weren't around back in the late 60's when wrestlers first started using the move. But I can tell you that, even though wrestling is somewhat choreographed and fake, it's not ALL choreographed and fake. I believe that the guys I saw back then who had that hold applied to them, as their faces turned bright red then purple prior to going limp, really were rendered unconscious.

Maybe by your time it had all gotten more fake like everything else has.

Also, to say that it was renamed FROM 'naked choke' to 'sleeper hold' and that doing so is somehow glorifying it, sounds pretty hysterical to me.

You've got the chronological order backwards.

It was called 'the sleeper hold' long before the more current, younger generation's ghetto influenced manner of speaking gave it that macho shithead sounding MMA title, 'naked choke'.

Also, I don't see how the name 'sleeper hold' supposedly "glorifies" it.

A "rear naked choke" also involves using your legs to keep them from kicking. Like this:

 

[Nomad]

A "rear naked choke" also involves using your legs to keep them from kicking. Like this:

Well, then it looks like what Penny used was in fact, NOT a 'naked choke'.

Looks more like the classic sleeper hold.

 

[Althea]

I think it might be more accurate to say that he STOPPED posing a physical threat AFTER several people had subdued him.

Prior to the subordination, he did pose a very possible physical threat.

Semantics. But I could have used a few more keystrokes in my comments. This is exactly what I meant.

I agree that it was negligent homicide on Penny's part, but I'm hoping they find extenuating circumstances and his punishment is in the more minimal range.

He made a bad decision to use that hold.

I agree. I don't think he set out to kill anyone, and I still say he was in full blown adrenaline overload.

I actually felt the same way about the rookies who were convicted alongside Chauvin. They actually tried to get Chauvin to back off.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than I am and you probably weren't around back in the late 60's when wrestlers first started using the move. But I can tell you that, even though wrestling is somewhat choreographed and fake, it's not ALL choreographed and fake. I believe that the guys I saw back then who had that hold applied to them, as their faces turned bright red then purple prior to going limp, really were rendered unconscious.

Maybe by your time it had all gotten more fake like everything else has

.
LOL. I'm older than you are. I used to watch Bruno Sammartino when I was young. I'll never forget being mortified when an opponent (whose name escapes me...someone Newberry?) supposedly shoved nut shells into Bruno's eyes. I believed it was real. I also remember watching Haystack Calhoun. Then I grew up and realized it was all a joke.

Also, to say that it was renamed FROM 'naked choke' to 'sleeper hold' and that doing so is somehow glorifying it, sounds pretty hysterical to me.

You've got the chronological order backwards.

It was called 'the sleeper hold' long before the more current, younger generation's ghetto influenced manner of speaking gave it that macho shithead sounding MMA title, 'naked choke'.

No, actually. I don't. I'm sure the original name is Japanese, or Cambodian according to history. Some say the Greeks employed it too. 'Naked' refers to the fact that the choke can be performed without the use of a gi.

Also, I don't see how the name 'sleeper hold' supposedly "glorifies" it.

Everything in fake wrestling is glorified.

 

[Althea]

Well, then it looks like what Penny used was in fact, NOT a 'naked choke'.

Looks more like the classic sleeper hold.

He was wearing a gi?

 

[Damocles]

Well, then it looks like what Penny used was in fact, NOT a 'naked choke'.

Looks more like the classic sleeper hold.

Indeed. But I cannot see his feet. However there were others there helping with limbs and stuff so I doubt it was a rear naked choke.

 

[Nomad]

He was wearing a gi?

Doesn't matter because it wasn't a "choke" hold period.

Naked or otherwise.

The picture shows that he was compressing the sides of the neck, cutting off the carotid arteries.

Any choking was probably accidental due to his improperly applying it.

Somebody decided to call it a choke hold because it sounds worse and now all the social justice callers are parroting that.

It's a sleeper hold.

 

[Nomad]

Some say the Greeks employed it too. 'Naked' refers to the fact that the choke can be performed without the use of a gi.

Everything the Greeks did was naked.

Everything that involved men with other men, anyway.

 

[Althea]

Doesn't matter because it wasn't a "choke" hold period.

Naked or otherwise.

The picture shows that he was compressing the sides of the neck, cutting off the carotid arteries.

Any choking was probably accidental due to his improperly applying it.

Somebody decided to call it a choke hold because it sounds worse and now all the social justice callers are parroting that.

It's a sleeper hold.

LOL. Keep playing semantics. The rear naked choke was being used for centuries before someone came up with the idea for fake wrestling.
https://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Sleeper-Choke-Hold

Also known as the sleeper, sleeper hold, or rear-naked choke, the sleeper choke hold slows blood supply to the brain and causes the person being choked to pass out

 

[Nomad]

LOL. Keep playing semantics. The rear naked choke was being used for centuries before someone came up with the idea for fake wrestling.
https://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Sleeper-Choke-Hold

Look at the picture Damocles posted of the naked choke hold.

Then look at the side-by-side comparison picture I posted of a pro wrestler applying the SLEEPER HOLD next to the picture of Penny applying THE EXACT SAME HOLD to Neely.

Completely different hold.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

Long ago, we used to have homes for mentally ill people like this young man. Unfortunately almost all of them were closed under the regime of Saint Ronnie. Now these folks, who used to at least have a clean place to stay and proper treatment, are roaming the streets and sleeping in cardboard boxes, if they can find one. RWers constantly screech on this board about the "homeless problem." Are we willing to pay more taxes -- or tax the wealthy more equitably -- to cover the cost of institutions for the mentally ill? Are we willing to tell them that we must take away their "freedom" and they must go live in those institutions?

 

[Althea]

Look at the picture Damocles posted of the naked choke hold.

Then look at the side-by-side comparison picture I posted of a pro wrestler applying the SLEEPER HOLD next to the picture of Penny applying THE EXACT SAME HOLD to Neely.

Completely different hold.

LOL. How long did it take you to find an image that made it appear that Penny is standing? It's a rear choke. I'm sure 'naked' is a more modern adjective added to deliniate between no gi, and competition with a gi.

Penny is even using his legs, which you seem to believe qualifies it as a naked choke vs. sleeper hold. He would have been able to completely wrap his legs if others weren't aiding in the submission.

I would add that a slight change in position turns the submission into strangulation as opposed to cutting off blood flow. In this picture, you can clearly see that only one carotid is being cut off, and he's actually being strangled.

https://www.whittierdailynews.com/2...omicide-as-outrage-grows-over-subway-killing/


As you said...he needs to do some amount of time. Other pics show Penny looking directly into the camera as he continues to strangle the victim.

Not unlike Chauvin