Revisiting Arthur Burns

[cawacko]

I don't have problems with people that differ with my opinions on Policy issues- But I have a huge problem with the Hatred expressed and poor disregard I hear about liberals from Republicans.

Now, we can either address that, or I'll just defend my position on REPUBLICANS IN GENERAL- and that is- I believe you people are BUTT-HURT and spoiled sports- when you don't get your way in elections.

I started the thread and there was no name calling. If you want to say I should have been more specific and said liberal economists and historians, as was written in the article, as opposed to simply liberals then that is fair I guess as it is more specific (although plenty here will take the statement of one person and say it speaks for millions of others so it's a bit of a selective outrage). But there was nothing derogatory about my statement toward anyone. I know this subject doesn't appeal to everyone but it intrigues me and I appreciate hearing opinions like what you offered.

 

[archives]

Wow. It's like Jekyll & Hyde ITT. Haha. Appreciate the response though.

As I understand it, Nixon pressured Burns to keep rates low. Now Nixon is far from the first, or the last, President to pressure the Fed to do his bidding. But if you believe that the Fed should be an independent entity then Nixon rightfully gets sh*t for doing so. But you're taking the position that those discussed in the article are taking which is a more dovish position, that Burns did the right thing by thinking more of employment and the economy rather than strictly inflation and not going full bore on raising rates. It's very similar to the arguments today, the fear that Powell and the Fed will go too far in tightening and hurt employment.

Historical revisionism, not unusual, often occurs decades after the initial event when historians (I’d assume economists here) have had more time to evaluate. In the 1960’s, historians revised what was perceived traditionally as the left leaning Progressive Era as the root movement of the McCarthy Era fifty years later.

If it makes you feel any better, few people across America, at least for a generation, are always going to think of the A’s and Raiders as the Oakland A’s and Oakland Raiders. Are the Warriors secure, Vegas still doesn’t have an NBA team. Imagine with transfer and NIL what Tarkanian could do with the University of Nevada today.

 

[cawacko]

Historical revisionism, not unusual, often occurs decades after the initial event when historians (I’d assume economists here) have had more time to evaluate. In the 1960’s, historians revised what was perceived traditionally as the left leaning Progressive Era as the root movement of the McCarthy Era fifty years later.

If it makes you feel any better, few people across America, at least for a generation, are always going to think of the A’s and Raiders as the Oakland A’s and Oakland Raiders. Are the Warriors secure, Vegas still doesn’t have an NBA team. Imagine with transfer and NIL what Tarkanian could do with the University of Nevada today.

I definitely agree that truly rating people's performance in office can often take decades because the effects of what they've done (whether positive or negative) doesn't often fully show itself right away. I don't really see how there is a way to (positively) sugar coat what Burns did though. Looking at it decades later does not put it in any more of a positive light. It led to Volker having to crush the economy. As I see it (granted with the view of history as I was an infant when it was occurring) Burns just delayed the pain and ultimately caused it to be worse. (I think Powell recognizes that and while not wanting to hurt the economy doesn't want to have a similar legacy as Burns.)

Some of my Oakland friends have declared the Raiders to be 'universal' meaning "the greatness of the Raiders is forever no matter where they currently reside". (I hate the Raiders). The A's organization is tied for third for the most World Series victories. They've had four in Oakland and that was since 1968. Not many other teams have that many in that time frame. They have a great history in Oakland.

Tark was a legend. I know the guy wasn't pure (nobody in college sports is) but the NCAA f*cked him. Would have love to see them continue their run instead of the corrupt NCAA putting them on probation and essentially ending it. (Since you mentioned N.I.L. and Ed O'Bannon was the poster boy for that - O'Bannon was headed to UNLV to play for Tark until they got put on probation then he switched to UCLA.)

 

[archives]

I definitely agree that truly rating people's performance in office can often take decades because the effects of what they've done (whether positive or negative) doesn't often fully show itself right away. I don't really see how there is a way to (positively) sugar coat what Burns did though. Looking at it decades later does not put it in any more of a positive light. It led to Volker having to crush the economy. As I see it (granted with the view of history as I was an infant when it was occurring) Burns just delayed the pain and ultimately caused it to be worse. (I think Powell recognizes that and while not wanting to hurt the economy doesn't want to have a similar legacy as Burns.)

Some of my Oakland friends have declared the Raiders to be 'universal' meaning "the greatness of the Raiders is forever no matter where they currently reside". (I hate the Raiders). The A's organization is tied for third for the most World Series victories. They've had four in Oakland and that was since 1968. Not many other teams have that many in that time frame. They have a great history in Oakland.

Tark was a legend. I know the guy wasn't pure (nobody in college sports is) but the NCAA f*cked him. Would have love to see them continue their run instead of the corrupt NCAA putting them on probation and essentially ending it. (Since you mentioned N.I.L. and Ed O'Bannon was the poster boy for that - O'Bannon was headed to UNLV to play for Tark until they got put on probation then he switched to UCLA.)

Tied for third, and that includes the Philadelphia A's, you weren't trying to sneak one in there were you?

Disagree on Tarkanian, he was a snake, anybody who couldn't qualify academically at another school or was thrown out he greeted with open arms

 

[cawacko]

Tied for third, and that includes the Philadelphia A's, you weren't trying to sneak one in there were you?

Disagree on Tarkanian, he was a snake, anybody who couldn't qualify academically at another school or was thrown out he greeted with open arms

Haha, I specifically said the A’s organization is tied for third - because that includes Philadelphia. The A’s won four of their nine titles in Oakland.

The alternative narrative is that Tark gave kids a chance who other schools wouldn’t touch. That’s why he was so loved in the inner cities.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

I started the thread and there was no name calling. If you want to say I should have been more specific and said liberal economists and historians, as was written in the article, as opposed to simply liberals then that is fair I guess as it is more specific (although plenty here will take the statement of one person and say it speaks for millions of others so it's a bit of a selective outrage). But there was nothing derogatory about my statement toward anyone. I know this subject doesn't appeal to everyone but it intrigues me and I appreciate hearing opinions like what you offered.

If I come across as a junkyard dog barking at the wind and howling at the moon, I'll apologize for my personal mood swing. But, I never intended to personally verbally attack you. I find you to be a positive contributor to the forum, and I find your threads good discussion material. Nor, do I ever find your comments, in response to mine, or any one else, offensive in any way. So thanks for allowing me to try and clear that up.

As you can tell though, I am a bit frustrated with the political climate and fevered pitch overall here in the forum.

 

[cawacko]

If I come across as a junkyard dog barking at the wind and howling at the moon, I'll apologize for my personal mood swing. But, I never intended to personally verbally attack you. I find you to be a positive contributor to the forum, and I find your threads good discussion material. Nor, do I ever find your comments, in response to mine, or any one else, offensive in any way. So thanks for allowing me to try and clear that up.

As you can tell though, I am a bit frustrated with the political climate and fevered pitch overall here in the forum.

This board has definitely changed. I'm embarrassed to say how long I've posted here, and in no way will I pretend it was all kumbaya back in the day, but it was different. It was before trolling really became a thing so there was much better conversation and people got along more, especially across the political divide. Again, I'm not trying to paint some unrealistic glorious picture but it wasn't as tribal and you had posters who weren't just straight partisans so you had more diverse viewpoints and ultimately discussions. Today it's basically you're on one side and I'm on the other, you think one thing and I think the other and there is very little to no middle or nuance or heterodox thinking. Therefore we sit here and scream at other and then go back into our corners among our 'teams' feeling good about ourselves. To me that's a lot less enjoyable but to each his own.

Ultimately all we can control is ourselves right? We each have the power to determine our attitude and how we post. Some people enjoy trolling and trash talking and the board provides that outlet so that's what they do. But we all have a choice whether to join and participate or go a different route. (I'll exit my soap box now.)

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

This board has definitely changed. I'm embarrassed to say how long I've posted here, and in no way will I pretend it was all kumbaya back in the day, but it was different. It was before trolling really became a thing so there was much better conversation and people got along more, especially across the political divide. Again, I'm not trying to paint some unrealistic glorious picture but it wasn't as tribal and you had posters who weren't just straight partisans so you had more diverse viewpoints and ultimately discussions. Today it's basically you're on one side and I'm on the other, you think one thing and I think the other and there is very little to no middle or nuance or heterodox thinking. Therefore we sit here and scream at other and then go back into our corners among our 'teams' feeling good about ourselves. To me that's a lot less enjoyable but to each his own.

Ultimately all we can control is ourselves right? We each have the power to determine our attitude and how we post. Some people enjoy trolling and trash talking and the board provides that outlet so that's what they do. But we all have a choice whether to join and participate or go a different route. (I'll exit my soap box now.)

Humans!

Bad behavior seems to breed bad behavior with humans.

Monkey see- Monkey do!

Not that I am trying to excuse the behaviors of anyone, but for me, the worst example of a human being with bad behaviors is Donald Trump.

He is the worst example for anyone to follow in his footsteps. He made it very clear that he likes name calling, lying, getting even, insulting others, accusing others, that he likes to FIGHT BACK, that he endorses violence, while he never admits a mistake, dishing it out- but not taking it, he makes no apologies to anyone for anything, and it's all about winning at any cost, and if you cross him, he'll be coming after you with fire, fury, hellbent vendictiveness, and retaliation.

So, even though he is not the first person that was ever a bad influence, he is the world's best example of what our parents raised us to not become.

But, he obviously does have a lot of bad influence on some, as his followers act just like him now!

Unfortunately all he has accomplished, is turning his Cult of Personality followers into Sociably Inept impossible people JUST LIKE HIMSELF.

It seems the Republicans have adopted a new Modus Operandi standard for themselves now- BEHAVE LIKE DONALD TRUMP! Just become as impossible as you can by either lying, denying, or crying about everything- AND YOU WIN! But do they?

Misery loves company!

 

[archives]

Haha, I specifically said the A’s organization is tied for third - because that includes Philadelphia. The A’s won four of their nine titles in Oakland.

The alternative narrative is that Tark gave kids a chance who other schools wouldn’t touch. That’s why he was so loved in the inner cities.

Best memories of the A’s in the Series was the earthquake on live TV, the uniforms, and Charlie Finley, a bad copy of Bill Veeck

Tark gave kids a chance who other schools wouldn’t touch” as long as they could play basketball, and play basketball well, and in most cases, they were kids other schools flushed or rejected due to other circumstances.

 

[cawacko]

Humans!

Bad behavior seems to breed bad behavior with humans.

Monkey see- Monkey do!

Not that I am trying to excuse the behaviors of anyone, but for me, the worst example of a human being with bad behaviors is Donald Trump.

He is the worst example for anyone to follow in his footsteps. He made it very clear that he likes name calling, lying, getting even, insulting others, accusing others, that he likes to FIGHT BACK, that he endorses violence, while he never admits a mistake, dishing it out- but not taking it, he makes no apologies to anyone for anything, and it's all about winning at any cost, and if you cross him, he'll be coming after you with fire, fury, hellbent vendictiveness, and retaliation.

So, even though he is not the first person that was ever a bad influence, he is the world's best example of what our parents raised us to not become.

But, he obviously does have a lot of bad influence on some, as his followers act just like him now!

Unfortunately all he has accomplished, is turning his Cult of Personality followers into Sociably Inept impossible people JUST LIKE HIMSELF.

Misery loves company!

No disrespect but to me that's a cop out. We all control our attitude and how we respond to others. It's like the folks who say "well if people would be nice to me then I would be nice to them". It's taking no responsibility for our own actions.

I don't think there is any question that the internet and social media specifically have created more polarization and contributed to trolling and anti-social behavior that seems so prevalent. But again, we are all responsible for our own behavior. Like Michael Jackson said, "I'm looking at the man in the mirror and asking him to change his ways". I can't make someone else change but I can change myself.

 

[cawacko]

Best memories of the A’s in the Series was the earthquake on live TV, the uniforms, and Charlie Finley, a bad copy of Bill Veeck

Tark gave kids a chance who other schools wouldn’t touch” as long as they could play basketball, and play basketball well, and in most cases, they were kids other schools flushed or rejected due to other circumstances.

Will never forget that earthquake. I was upstairs and my sister downstairs when our house started to shake. My father left work early that day to come home to watch the game (he worked in SF and we lived in Oakland) and had passed over the portion of the Bay Bridge that collapsed about ten minutes before it happened.

No question Tark was only going after kids who could ball. But he was beloved because he gave them second chances. The word wasn't used back then but he was kind of being woke in a certain sense (if you think the system is racist and he's helping kids others won't touch). I'm in no way trying to paint him as Mother Theresa because he's not but he was loved.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

No disrespect but to me that's a cop out. We all control our attitude and how we respond to others. It's like the folks who say "well if people would be nice to me then I would be nice to them". It's taking no responsibility for our own actions.

I don't think there is any question that the internet and social media specifically have created more polarization and contributed to trolling and anti-social behavior that seems so prevalent. But again, we are all responsible for our own behavior. Like Michael Jackson said, "I'm looking at the man in the mirror and asking him to change his ways". I can't make someone else change but I can change myself.

Never mind then!

I am a guy that has a lot of restraint. In other words, someone may push me, and I'll just back up a little bit, give them room.

But if they keep on pushing, over and over again, my back will reach a wall, and then I respond by giving them a little taste of their own medicine.

My father raised me to practice the golden rule, but he also taught me how to stand up to bullies, and how to know when I reach my breaking point.

In fact, I wasn't talking about how we were all acting, and I know that no one is perfect- certainly not I Sir!

But, I was specifically talking about how Trump has led his people down a nasty path by setting some very bad examples, and now they are acting just like him.

I suppose that went over your head, or that you just disagree with what I had to say!

 

[cawacko]

Never mind then!

I am a guy that has a lot of restraint. In other words, someone may push me, and I'll just back up a little bit, give them room.

But if they keep on pushing, over and over again, my back will reach a wall, and then I respond by giving them a little taste of their own medicine.

My father raised me to practice the golden rule, but he also taught me how to stand up to bullies, and how to know when I reach my breaking point.

In fact, I wasn't talking about how we were all acting, and I know that no one is perfect- certainly not I Sir!

But, I was specifically talking about how Trump has led his people down a nasty path by setting some very bad examples, and now they are acting just like him.

I suppose that went over your head, or that you just disagree with what I had to say!

To each his own of course I guess I just view it differently. My attitude and behavior, whether on here or in the real world, isn't driven by Trump. It reminds me of the scene in Forrest Gump when Jenny's boyfriend hits her then blames it on LBJ. It's not a justifiable excuse.

If we're talking specifically about JPP, how we choose to treat each other and speak to each other is determined by each of us not some politician or other outside person. (I know I don't always behave the best here but that's on me, it's not some politicians fault for my poor behavior in my view.)