Mass shootings = symptoms of a much worse problem

B

BartenderElite

Verified User
I hate how both sides react to these. The left is no doubt bad - it's all guns, all the time. But the right is no better. If it's a Muslim - time for a travel ban! If it's a transgender, it's all "see! We told you they were dangerous." Even though both groups account for less than 1% of American mass shootings.

The answer? We're sick as a nation. And this is a symptom. If we had a doctor for countries, we'd be admitted to the emergency room right away. This is like a Stage 4 kind of symptom. We've let things go. We've allowed divisiveness, hate & fear trump the better angels of our nature. We've allowed demagogues to rule the day, and we've let the internet run wild. And guns are PART of the problem, as well. There is no coincidence between the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership, and gun violence. Saying the answer is "more guns" is an incredible disconnect.

I have no answer, but I know where the answers lie: in honest discussion. Not "how can this help my side" knee-jerk reactions. We've gotta stop politicizing this stuff, and think through all aspects of it in an unbiased, critical way. We need real leaders, and not cartoon characters.

Lives depend on this. We have to step up. It is time.
 
BartenderElite said:
I hate how both sides react to these. The left is no doubt bad - it's all guns, all the time. But the right is no better. If it's a Muslim - time for a travel ban! If it's a transgender, it's all "see! We told you they were dangerous." Even though both groups account for less than 1% of American mass shootings.

The answer? We're sick as a nation. And this is a symptom. If we had a doctor for countries, we'd be admitted to the emergency room right away. This is like a Stage 4 kind of symptom. We've let things go. We've allowed divisiveness, hate & fear trump the better angels of our nature. We've allowed demagogues to rule the day, and we've let the internet run wild. And guns are PART of the problem, as well. There is no coincidence between the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership, and gun violence. Saying the answer is "more guns" is an incredible disconnect.

I have no answer, but I know where the answers lie: in honest discussion. Not "how can this help my side" knee-jerk reactions. We've gotta stop politicizing this stuff, and think through all aspects of it in an unbiased, critical way. We need real leaders, and not cartoon characters.

Lives depend on this. We have to step up. It is time.
Click to expand...

Maybe the US deserves it. I think so. We think saying "oops" after killing 750,000 innocent Iraqis makes it okay.
 
Jamaica is one of the most violent countries in the Caribbean. In 2022, there were approximately 52.9 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in the island nation. This was highest homicide rate in Latin America and the Caribbean that year.Mar 6, 2023

Jamaica has 8.8 guns per 100 citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

The U.S. has 1100% more guns (120.5) per 100 citizens, and a murder rate of 7.8 per 100k
 
Bigdog said:
Jamaica is one of the most violent countries in the Caribbean. In 2022, there were approximately 52.9 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in the island nation. This was highest homicide rate in Latin America and the Caribbean that year.Mar 6, 2023

Jamaica has 8.8 guns per 100 citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

The U.S. has 1100% more guns (120.5) per 100 citizens, and a murder rate of 7.8 per 100k
Click to expand...

All you're doing here is trying to find an example to back up "it's not the guns."

Kind of what I was talking about in the OP.
 
BartenderElite said:
And again - if you read the OP, I do not "blame the gun."

You're basically backing up most of what I said in the OP about the current discourse.
Click to expand...

And guns are PART of the problem, as well. There is no coincidence between the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership, and gun violence. Saying the answer is "more guns" is an incredible disconnect.
Click to expand...

How are you NOT blaming the gun with those statements??? :dunno:
 
BartenderElite said:
I hate how both sides react to these. The left is no doubt bad - it's all guns, all the time. But the right is no better. If it's a Muslim - time for a travel ban! If it's a transgender, it's all "see! We told you they were dangerous." Even though both groups account for less than 1% of American mass shootings.

The answer? We're sick as a nation. And this is a symptom. If we had a doctor for countries, we'd be admitted to the emergency room right away. This is like a Stage 4 kind of symptom. We've let things go. We've allowed divisiveness, hate & fear trump the better angels of our nature. We've allowed demagogues to rule the day, and we've let the internet run wild. And guns are PART of the problem, as well. There is no coincidence between the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership, and gun violence. Saying the answer is "more guns" is an incredible disconnect.

I have no answer, but I know where the answers lie: in honest discussion. Not "how can this help my side" knee-jerk reactions. We've gotta stop politicizing this stuff, and think through all aspects of it in an unbiased, critical way. We need real leaders, and not cartoon characters.

Lives depend on this. We have to step up. It is time.
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of that. Let me ask you a question, do you think there are more guns now than 30-40 years ago? I havent researched it so i don't know. Any idea?
 
Yakuda said:
I agree with a lot of that. Let me ask you a question, do you think there are more guns now than 30-40 years ago? I havent researched it so i don't know. Any idea?
Click to expand...

I really don't know. Honestly - I am not anti-gun, or anti 2nd amendment. Like I said earlier, I don't know what the answer is. But I think the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership & gun violence should be part of the discussion (just a part).
 
BartenderElite said:
I really don't know. Honestly - I am not anti-gun, or anti 2nd amendment. Like I said earlier, I don't know what the answer is. But I think the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership & gun violence should be part of the discussion (just a part).
Click to expand...

Ok. Fair enough. About how much of the problem do you think it might be? I'd say it's less than 50% of the problem.
 
BartenderElite said:
I hate how both sides react to these. The left is no doubt bad - it's all guns, all the time. But the right is no better. If it's a Muslim - time for a travel ban! If it's a transgender, it's all "see! We told you they were dangerous." Even though both groups account for less than 1% of American mass shootings.

The answer? We're sick as a nation. And this is a symptom. If we had a doctor for countries, we'd be admitted to the emergency room right away. This is like a Stage 4 kind of symptom. We've let things go. We've allowed divisiveness, hate & fear trump the better angels of our nature. We've allowed demagogues to rule the day, and we've let the internet run wild. And guns are PART of the problem, as well. There is no coincidence between the fact that we lead the world in gun ownership, and gun violence. Saying the answer is "more guns" is an incredible disconnect.

I have no answer, but I know where the answers lie: in honest discussion. Not "how can this help my side" knee-jerk reactions. We've gotta stop politicizing this stuff, and think through all aspects of it in an unbiased, critical way. We need real leaders, and not cartoon characters.

Lives depend on this. We have to step up. It is time.
Click to expand...

It's a very legitimate question. Guns play a role but guns have always been around and we didn't have this level of school shootings. Mental health plays a role but not all mental health people shoot up school or buildings and mental health issues aren't new.

Doing a google search turns up some interesting research on those who have studied these shooters and the idea of breakdowns in society that have led up to this. There's no one easy answer unfortunately.
 
Yakuda said:
Ok. Fair enough. About how much of the problem do you think it might be? I'd say it's mess than 50% of the problem.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's most of the problem. I think problems w/ culture, the "technological age" (for lack of a better description), things like more single-parent homes, our still very poor handling of mental health issues - those are clearly things that have developed over time and are now here in a big way.

As far as guns: I look at a situation like this, and think, 'THIS person should not have been able to get a gun.' Of course that's easy to say after the fact, but there were red flags here. Early identification of these issues has to improve, somehow.
 
Bigdog said:
Jamaica is one of the most violent countries in the Caribbean. In 2022, there were approximately 52.9 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in the island nation. This was highest homicide rate in Latin America and the Caribbean that year.Mar 6, 2023

Jamaica has 8.8 guns per 100 citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

The U.S. has 1100% more guns (120.5) per 100 citizens, and a murder rate of 7.8 per 100k
Click to expand...

America is far from the most deadly country in the world
 
cawacko said:
It's a very legitimate question. Guns play a role but guns have always been around and we didn't have this level of school shootings. Mental health plays a role but not all mental health people shoot up school or buildings and mental health issues aren't new.

Doing a google search turns up some interesting research on those who have studied these shooters and the idea of breakdowns in society that have led up to this. There's no one easy answer unfortunately.
Click to expand...

And that very last part is where it becomes hard for America. We're just not great when it comes to complex issues. We need there to be a guy in a black hat, and a guy in a white hat. Anything involving nuanced discussion is a challenge, especially on a political level.
 
BartenderElite said:
I don't think it's most of the problem. I think problems w/ culture, the "technological age" (for lack of a better description), things like more single-parent homes, our still very poor handling of mental health issues - those are clearly things that have developed over time and are now here in a big way.

As far as guns: I look at a situation like this, and think, 'THIS person should not have been able to get a gun.' Of course that's easy to say after the fact, but there were red flags here. Early identification of these issues has to improve, somehow.
Click to expand...

I think the vast majority of the problem is cultural. Guns aren't new and neither are mental health issues.
 
BartenderElite said:
And that very last part is where it becomes hard for America. We're just not great when it comes to complex issues. We need there to be a guy in a black hat, and a guy in a white hat. Anything involving nuanced discussion is a challenge, especially on a political level.
Click to expand...

One side uses lies in preference to truth
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top