house passes health care bill 220-215

Yurt said:
fair enough....

it is my opinion though that the lack of h/c harms this country more than the cost of providing h/c as had been ""claimed"" under the plans. i am fully aware that such claims made the government often are vastly understated, but if this plan is budget neutral, i don't really have a problem with it, especially since those without insurance also cost this country money, ER visits for starters....

There is no one who believes that this plan will be "budget neutral". Further this plan won't even cover everyone. Tell me yurt if medicare is losing billions a year how will this even bigger program be "budget neutral"?

i agree about the distribution of wealth, however, if the lack of h/c is actually harming us more than benefitting us, then the distribution of wealth of course is a moot point, as the benefits, wealth as well, outweigh the plan.

I am amazed that you can actually believe that a complete re-working of how wealth is accumulated and invested is better than what we now have. This idea that the democrat's plan for healthcare or keeping the status quo are the only alternatives is absurd.

i will be honest and admit this much, i have changed my views on some social programs over the past year.....one example, i would give more but some asshole from maine is a stalker, is a friend who lost their job. they are on unemployment while seeking work....at first i was like, hey, get another fucking job, at mcdonalds or something....however, due to their "experience" they don't even get called back at places like that....and they only have an undergrad degree.....without unemployment they would be screwed.....

what are your thoughts on that?
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Unemployment insurance is another topic.
 
TuTu Monroe said:
Yurt, this bill is a disaster in the making.

Here are just a few of the sections in the bill:

• Sec. 202 (p. 91-92) of the bill requires you to enroll in a "qualified plan." If you get your insurance at work, your employer will have a "grace period" to switch you to a "qualified plan," meaning a plan designed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. If you buy your own insurance, there's no grace period. You'll have to enroll in a qualified plan as soon as any term in your contract changes, such as the co-pay, deductible or benefit.

• Sec. 224 (p. 118) provides that 18 months after the bill becomes law, the Secretary of Health and Human Services will decide what a "qualified plan" covers and how much you'll be legally required to pay for it. That's like a banker telling you to sign the loan agreement now, then filling in the interest rate and repayment terms 18 months later.

The next paragraph is just an estimate.

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.

• Sec. 303 (pp. 167-168) makes it clear that, although the "qualified plan" is not yet designed, it will be of the "one size fits all" variety. The bill claims to offer choice—basic, enhanced and premium levels—but the benefits are the same. Only the co-pays and deductibles differ. You will have to enroll in the same plan, whether the government is paying for it or you and your employer are footing the bill.

• Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

• Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a "qualified plan" for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less.

Eviscerating Medicare:
In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions.
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Once people get used to the concept that one does not have to worry about illness/accident from the standpoint of being able to obtain medical services the objectors will come around.

Young families, the unemployed and under employed, those using their savings to buy their first home and then being stricken with an unexpected illness/accident......once people become accustomed to having the dread of affordability of medical care removed all these objections will fall to the wayside.

That 20 or 30 or 40 thousand dollar medical fund older people have stashed away for emergencies can be accessed to send their children or grandchildren to college. This will be one of the immediate benefits this bill offers.
 
apple0154 said:
Once people get used to the concept that one does not have to worry about illness/accident from the standpoint of being able to obtain medical services the objectors will come around.

Young families, the unemployed and under employed, those using their savings to buy their first home and then being stricken with an unexpected illness/accident......once people become accustomed to having the dread of affordability of medical care removed all these objections will fall to the wayside.

That 20 or 30 or 40 thousand dollar medical fund older people have stashed away for emergencies can be accessed to send their children or grandchildren to college. This will be one of the immediate benefits this bill offers.
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I have no problem paying for people who truly can't afford it though no fault of their own. There are many who can afford it, but choose not to get it. Now, with them, I do have a problem.

Census figures:

Components of the uninsured.

11 million illegal aliens. I shouldn't have to pay for them.

12.7 million includes newcomers.

14 million already eligible for Medicaid and Schips. Apparently they don't know they are eligible and haven't applied.

Household incomes >75k.
 
provides that 18 months after the bill becomes law, the Secretary of Health and Human Services will decide what a "qualified plan" covers and how much you'll be legally required to pay for it. That's like a banker telling you to sign the loan agreement now, then filling in the interest rate and repayment terms 18 months later.
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You signed the social contract when you became an American. If you disagree, move to Somalia, conservative paradise.
 
TuTu Monroe said:
I just heard that if this government continues its wild spending spree, the deficit could go up to 21 trillion in a decade or less.
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Do you mean the debt? The deficit is what we overspend per year, the debt is what accumulates because we never pay down the principal on the loans.
 
What cracks me up is the imbecile reaction by the Party of No GOP'ers and their neocon parrot pundits and supporters. These dopes have NO problem being "slaves" to private medical insurance companies....but cringe at the very thought that the gov't offers a competitve option....and worst, that the gov't passes laws to keep the medical insurance companies from the unfair practices they love so dearly.

Oh well, what the House just passed is fairly watered down version of the original proposals...now we get to see if Lieberman and the GOP will filibuster in the Senate. Ahhh, the show must go on!
 
TuTu Monroe said:
Yurt, this bill is a disaster in the making.

Here are just a few of the sections in the bill:

• Sec. 202 (p. 91-92) of the bill requires you to enroll in a "qualified plan." If you get your insurance at work, your employer will have a "grace period" to switch you to a "qualified plan," meaning a plan designed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. If you buy your own insurance, there's no grace period. You'll have to enroll in a qualified plan as soon as any term in your contract changes, such as the co-pay, deductible or benefit.

• Sec. 224 (p. 118) provides that 18 months after the bill becomes law, the Secretary of Health and Human Services will decide what a "qualified plan" covers and how much you'll be legally required to pay for it. That's like a banker telling you to sign the loan agreement now, then filling in the interest rate and repayment terms 18 months later.

The next paragraph is just an estimate.

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.

• Sec. 303 (pp. 167-168) makes it clear that, although the "qualified plan" is not yet designed, it will be of the "one size fits all" variety. The bill claims to offer choice—basic, enhanced and premium levels—but the benefits are the same. Only the co-pays and deductibles differ. You will have to enroll in the same plan, whether the government is paying for it or you and your employer are footing the bill.

• Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.

• Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a "qualified plan" for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less.

Eviscerating Medicare:
In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions.
Click to expand...

i wondered how many read the entire bill - you forgot to quote the section that eviscerates medicare
 
TuTu Monroe said:
I have no problem paying for people who truly can't afford it though no fault of their own. There are many who can afford it, but choose not to get it. Now, with them, I do have a problem.

Census figures:

Components of the uninsured.

11 million illegal aliens. I shouldn't have to pay for them.

12.7 million includes newcomers.

14 million already eligible for Medicaid and Schips. Apparently they don't know they are eligible and haven't applied.

Household incomes >75k.
Click to expand...

If there was a universal medical plan everyone would have a medical card with their picture similar to a driver's license.

There is no reason medical insurance companies, including the Government Option, can not have a photo ID card. When a person shows up at a hospital they are obliged to show their card. No card, no treatment.

As for illegals they should be immediately sent back to their country. Just as it is mandatory for doctors to report child abuse cases it should be mandatory to report illegal aliens who show up for medical treatment.
 
apple0154 said:
If there was a universal medical plan everyone would have a medical card with their picture similar to a driver's license.

There is no reason medical insurance companies, including the Government Option, can not have a photo ID card. When a person shows up at a hospital they are obliged to show their card. No card, no treatment.

As for illegals they should be immediately sent back to their country. Just as it is mandatory for doctors to report child abuse cases it should be mandatory to report illegal aliens who show up for medical treatment.
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Well, we finally agree on some things. That's a miracle in itself.:cof1:
 
DonQuixote said:
i wondered how many read the entire bill - you forgot to quote the section that eviscerates medicare
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I imagine not many read the bill, which is unacceptable.

Liberals are always confused about General Welfare and what it really means. Sigh!!

Here is what you were looking for, I believe.

Eviscerating Medicare:
In addition to reducing future Medicare funding by an estimated $500 billion, the bill fundamentally changes how Medicare pays doctors and hospitals, permitting the government to dictate treatment decisions.


• Sec. 1302 (pp. 672-692) moves Medicare from a fee-for-service payment system, in which patients choose which doctors to see and doctors are paid for each service they provide, toward what's called a "medical home."



The medical home is this decade's version of HMO-restrictions on care. A primary-care provider manages access to costly specialists and diagnostic tests for a flat monthly fee. The bill specifies that patients may have to settle for a nurse practitioner rather than a physician as the primary-care provider. Medical homes begin with demonstration projects, but the HHS secretary is authorized to "disseminate this approach rapidly on a national basis."



A December 2008 Congressional Budget Office report noted that "medical homes" were likely to resemble the unpopular gatekeepers of 20 years ago if cost control was a priority.
• Sec. 1114 (pp. 391-393) replaces physicians with physician assistants in overseeing care for hospice patients.



• Secs. 1158-1160 (pp. 499-520) initiates programs to reduce payments for patient care to what it costs in the lowest cost regions of the country. This will reduce payments for care (and by implication the standard of care) for hospital patients in higher cost areas such as New York and Florida.



• Sec. 1161 (pp. 520-545) cuts payments to Medicare Advantage plans (used by 20% of seniors). Advantage plans have warned this will result in reductions in optional benefits such as vision and dental care.


• Sec. 1402 (p. 756) says that the results of comparative effectiveness research conducted by the government will be delivered to doctors electronically to guide their use of "medical items and services."


Questionable Priorities:
While the bill will slash Medicare funding, it will also direct billions of dollars to numerous inner-city social work and diversity programs with vague standards of accountability.
 
Onceler said:
I think the dynamics of that changed a bit in the last day...
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You may see the Senate take a vote on their version this year, but I seriously doubt their final version will be anywhere near what the House just passed. This is going to slide into next year. Dems are going to start glancing towards the ever closer 2010 elections.... and my guess is... those on the fence that slid over to vote yes in the house are going to have second thoughts about doing so on the final bill. Three vote swing and it fails in the House... which is typically the easier of the two to get things through as the Senate doesn't have as much room for error.
 
Taichiliberal said:
What cracks me up is the imbecile reaction by the Party of No GOP'ers and their neocon parrot pundits and supporters. These dopes have NO problem being "slaves" to private medical insurance companies....but cringe at the very thought that the gov't offers a competitve option....and worst, that the gov't passes laws to keep the medical insurance companies from the unfair practices they love so dearly.

Oh well, what the House just passed is fairly watered down version of the original proposals...now we get to see if Lieberman and the GOP will filibuster in the Senate. Ahhh, the show must go on!
Click to expand...

what is truly funny is the party of 'Hi, I am from the Government, I am here to help you' actually believes that makes people feel better.

It is GOVERNMENT intervention and regulation that limits the competition of the free market TODAY. As was mentioned with auto insurance, it is portable, mandatory and can be sold across state lines. The competition keeps costs down. With health insurance, the 50 sets of regulations coupled with all of the Federal bullshit has created duopolies in most states. Add in the idea that we should have 'corporate' plans where the employee has no portability in most cases and you end up with employees trapped.
 
Superfreak said:
what is truly funny is the party of 'Hi, I am from the Government, I am here to help you' actually believes that makes people feel better.

Oh puh-leeze....that tired ass Ronnie Reagan bullshit. "The gov't is the problem, so put me in charge of the gov't and I'll get it off your backs by passing more rules and regulations that will give the responsible people in the private sector more power to do the right thing and have that success trickle down to you". Yeah, right...that worked out SO well! :rolleyes:

It is GOVERNMENT intervention and regulation that limits the competition of the free market TODAY. Bull fucking shit! We are witnessing what lax (and in some cases total) deregulation has wrought upon the American people. Now the people that fucked up are screaming bloody murder because they might be told to mind their P's & Q's. Yeah, all those lobbyist are working harder than ever to call in congressional markers to keep the status quo. As was mentioned with auto insurance, it is portable, mandatory and can be sold across state lines. The competition keeps costs down. Sorry, but there is a BIG difference between buying a car and taking care of the human body. Foreign imports and oil prices play a big part in car prices as well. Last time I checked, there wasn't any Italian, Japanese or German medical facilities opening franchises on the American health market...wait, check that. Chinese acupuncturist only in the last 15 years or less are being recognized by A FEW insurance companies. But other than that, zippo. With health insurance, the 50 sets of regulations coupled with all of the Federal bullshit has created duopolies in most states. Add in the idea that we should have 'corporate' plans where the employee has no portability in most cases and you end up with employees trapped.
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Got news for you, insurance companies are exempt from anti-trust laws...which alters your analogy here. And the gov't option is an OPTION by the federal gov't, NOT a corporate plan. If you like you plan, keep it. And if you change jobs, you can keep the same plan....something a LOT of companies don't allow.
 
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