obama continues the gray hair trend

Yurt said:
and you have no evidence to suggest his scholarship paid for all the tuition...you don't even know what kind of scholarship it was...
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Yet my "evidence" trumps your "evidence"...which was zero.

Why don't you just admit you have nothing and bow out gracefully, instead of continually upping the ante regarding the burden of proof?
 
belme1201 said:
Which proves what confirming you viewpoint?(conjecture)
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That records were kept secret, then shown to Kerry's bum-boy reporter, then sealed again.

Have you ever asked yourself why Kerry hasn't made all of the records public, and why he took two years to show them to his reporter?

One wonders how much effort was made to sanitize his records.
 
Southern Man said:
The ones where his superiors dismissed his request for a purple heart because it was a band-aid wound, but then that dismissal was overruled by someone. I'd like to see all records associated with that.
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More information needed. The only sites I can find about this are RW, anti-Kerry ones.

In any case, all soldiers who met the criteria got a PH. There's nothing about "band-aid" wounds listed. Note that a "physical lesion is not required". Why do you think the PTB would hide info about random soldier Kerry's Purple Heart, when over 200,000 were given during that war?

IMO the criticism of Kerry's war record has nothing to do with his actual service, but with the fact that he was running for the presidency against a man whose own record was less than stellar.

The Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria. A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an oak leaf cluster is awarded. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant. A "wound" is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required; however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

Enemy-related injuries which justify the award of the Purple Heart include injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action; injury caused by enemy placed land mine, naval mine, or trap; injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent; injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire; concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart[/ame]
 
christiefan915 said:
More information needed. The only sites I can find about this are RW, anti-Kerry ones.

In any case, all soldiers who met the criteria got a PH. There's nothing about "band-aid" wounds listed. Note that a "physical lesion is not required". Why do you think the PTB would hide info about random soldier Kerry's Purple Heart, when over 200,000 were given during that war?

IMO the criticism of Kerry's war record has nothing to do with his actual service, but with the fact that he was running for the presidency against a man whose own record was less than stellar.

The Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria. A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an oak leaf cluster is awarded. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant. A "wound" is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required; however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record. When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

Enemy-related injuries which justify the award of the Purple Heart include injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action; injury caused by enemy placed land mine, naval mine, or trap; injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent; injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire; concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart
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Kerry's injuries of at least on PH don't meet those criteria: he wasn't treated by a medical officer, and it was self inflicted (his grenade exploded a pile of rice, which came back to sting him in the ass). If Kerry released all his records to the public, then the documentation would be available to you in other than "right wing" sources.
 
Southern Man said:
Kerry's injuries of at least on PH don't meet those criteria: he wasn't treated by a medical officer, and it was self inflicted (his grenade exploded a pile of rice, which came back to sting him in the ass). If Kerry released all his records to the public, then the documentation would be available to you in other than "right wing" sources.
Click to expand...

Until something better shows up, I'll take Factcheck.org's word.

The Third Purple Heart

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth further says Kerry didn't deserve his third purple heart, which was received for shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on right forearm. The Swift Boat group's affidavits state that the wound in Kerry's backside happened earlier that day in an accident. "Kerry inadvertently wounded himself in the fanny," Thurlow said in his affidavit, "by throwing a grenade too close (to destroy a rice supply) and suffered minor shrapnel wounds."

The grenade incident is actually supported by Kerry's own account, but the shrapnel wound was only part of the basis for Kerry's third purple heart according to official documents. The evidence here is contradictory.

Kerry's account is in the book Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley, who based it largely on Kerry's own Vietnam diaries and 12 hours of interviews with Kerry. "I got a piece of small grenade in my ass from one of the rice-bin explosions and then we started to move back to the boats," Kerry is quoted as saying on page 313. In that account, Kerry says his arm was hurt later, after the mine blast that disabled PCF-3, when a second explosion rocked his own boat. "The concussion threw me violently against the bulkhead on the door and I smashed my arm," Kerry says on page 314.

And according to a Navy casualty report released by the Kerry campaign, the third purple heart was received for "shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94," Kerry's boat. As a matter of strict grammar, the report doesn't state that both injuries were received as a result of the mine explosion, only the arm injury.

The official citation for Kerry's Bronze Star refers only to his arm injury, not to the shrapnel wound to his rear. It says he performed the rescue "from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain." The description of Kerry's arm "bleeding" isn't consistent with the description of a "contusion," or bruise.

Rassmann's Aug. 10 Wall Street Journal article states that Kerry's arm was "wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat," which would make that wound clearly enemy-inflicted.

In any case, even a "friendly fire" injury can qualify for a purple heart "as long as the 'friendly' projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment," according to the Web site of the Military Order of the Purple Heart. All agree that rice was being destroyed that day on the assumption that it otherwise might feed Viet Cong fighters.

Another major discrepancy raises a question of how close Kerry's accusers actually were to the rescue of Rassmann. Tour of Duty describes Rassmann's rescue (and the sniper fire) as happening "several hundred yards back" from where the crippled PCF-3 was lying, not "a few yards away," the distance from which the anti-Kerry veterans claim to have witnessed the incident.

http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
 
christiefan915 said:
Until something better shows up, I'll take Factcheck.org's word.

The Third Purple Heart

The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth further says Kerry didn't deserve his third purple heart, which was received for shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on right forearm. The Swift Boat group's affidavits state that the wound in Kerry's backside happened earlier that day in an accident. "Kerry inadvertently wounded himself in the fanny," Thurlow said in his affidavit, "by throwing a grenade too close (to destroy a rice supply) and suffered minor shrapnel wounds."

The grenade incident is actually supported by Kerry's own account, but the shrapnel wound was only part of the basis for Kerry's third purple heart according to official documents. The evidence here is contradictory.

Kerry's account is in the book Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley, who based it largely on Kerry's own Vietnam diaries and 12 hours of interviews with Kerry. "I got a piece of small grenade in my ass from one of the rice-bin explosions and then we started to move back to the boats," Kerry is quoted as saying on page 313. In that account, Kerry says his arm was hurt later, after the mine blast that disabled PCF-3, when a second explosion rocked his own boat. "The concussion threw me violently against the bulkhead on the door and I smashed my arm," Kerry says on page 314.

And according to a Navy casualty report released by the Kerry campaign, the third purple heart was received for "shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94," Kerry's boat. As a matter of strict grammar, the report doesn't state that both injuries were received as a result of the mine explosion, only the arm injury.

The official citation for Kerry's Bronze Star refers only to his arm injury, not to the shrapnel wound to his rear. It says he performed the rescue "from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain." The description of Kerry's arm "bleeding" isn't consistent with the description of a "contusion," or bruise.

Rassmann's Aug. 10 Wall Street Journal article states that Kerry's arm was "wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat," which would make that wound clearly enemy-inflicted.

In any case, even a "friendly fire" injury can qualify for a purple heart "as long as the 'friendly' projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment," according to the Web site of the Military Order of the Purple Heart. All agree that rice was being destroyed that day on the assumption that it otherwise might feed Viet Cong fighters.

Another major discrepancy raises a question of how close Kerry's accusers actually were to the rescue of Rassmann. Tour of Duty describes Rassmann's rescue (and the sniper fire) as happening "several hundred yards back" from where the crippled PCF-3 was lying, not "a few yards away," the distance from which the anti-Kerry veterans claim to have witnessed the incident.

http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
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From your link:

Louis Letson: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.
 
Southern Man said:
From your link:

Louis Letson: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.
Click to expand...

Further into the article, Letson goes into "CYA" mode.

Two who appear in the ad say Kerry didn't deserve his first purple heart. However, medical records provided by the Kerry campaign to FactCheck.org do not list Letson as the “person administering treatment” for Kerry’s injury on December 3, 1968 . The person who signed this sick call report is J.C. Carreon, who is listed as treating Kerry for shrapnel to the left arm.

"In his affidavit, Letson says Kerry's wound was self-inflicted and does not merit a purple heart. But that's based on hearsay, and disputed hearsay at that. Letson says “the crewman with Kerry told me there was no hostile fire, and that Kerry had inadvertently wounded himself with an M-79 grenade.” But the Kerry campaign says the two crewmen with Kerry that day deny ever talking to Letson.

On Aug. 17 the Los Angeles Times quoted Letson as giving a slightly different account than the one in his affidavit. The Times quotes him as saying he heard only third-hand that there had been no enemy fire. According to the Times, Letson said that what he heard about Kerry's wounding came not from other crewmen directly, but through some of his own subordinates. Letson was quoted as saying the information came from crewmen who were "just talking to my guys … There was not a firefight -- that's what the guys related. They didn't remember any firing from shore."

Letson also insisted to the Times that he was the one who treated Kerry, removing a tiny shard of shrapnel from Kerry's arm using a pair of tweezers. Letson said Carreon, whose signature appears on Kerry's medical record, was an enlisted man who routinely made record entries on his behalf. Carreon signed as "HM1," indicating he held the enlisted rank of Hospital Corpsman First Class.

Also appearing in the ad is Grant Hibbard, Kerry’s commanding officer at the time. Hibbard’s affidavit says that he “turned down the Purple Heart request,” and recalled Kerry's injury as a "tiny scratch less than from a rose thorn."

That doesn't quite square with Letson's affidavit, which describes shrapnel "lodged in Kerry's arm" (though "barely.")
 
christiefan915 said:
Further into the article, Letson goes into "CYA" mode.

Two who appear in the ad say Kerry didn't deserve his first purple heart. However, medical records provided by the Kerry campaign to FactCheck.org do not list Letson as the “person administering treatment” for Kerry’s injury on December 3, 1968 . The person who signed this sick call report is J.C. Carreon, who is listed as treating Kerry for shrapnel to the left arm.

"In his affidavit, Letson says Kerry's wound was self-inflicted and does not merit a purple heart. But that's based on hearsay, and disputed hearsay at that. Letson says “the crewman with Kerry told me there was no hostile fire, and that Kerry had inadvertently wounded himself with an M-79 grenade.” But the Kerry campaign says the two crewmen with Kerry that day deny ever talking to Letson.

On Aug. 17 the Los Angeles Times quoted Letson as giving a slightly different account than the one in his affidavit. The Times quotes him as saying he heard only third-hand that there had been no enemy fire. According to the Times, Letson said that what he heard about Kerry's wounding came not from other crewmen directly, but through some of his own subordinates. Letson was quoted as saying the information came from crewmen who were "just talking to my guys … There was not a firefight -- that's what the guys related. They didn't remember any firing from shore."

Letson also insisted to the Times that he was the one who treated Kerry, removing a tiny shard of shrapnel from Kerry's arm using a pair of tweezers. Letson said Carreon, whose signature appears on Kerry's medical record, was an enlisted man who routinely made record entries on his behalf. Carreon signed as "HM1," indicating he held the enlisted rank of Hospital Corpsman First Class.

Also appearing in the ad is Grant Hibbard, Kerry’s commanding officer at the time. Hibbard’s affidavit says that he “turned down the Purple Heart request,” and recalled Kerry's injury as a "tiny scratch less than from a rose thorn."

That doesn't quite square with Letson's affidavit, which describes shrapnel "lodged in Kerry's arm" (though "barely.")
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That's not "CYA"; that's clarification. The fact is that Kerry's wound were self inflicted and minor, not worthy of a pH and certainly not worthy to get him out of his one year commitment. Kerry is a fraud, and thus the perfect spokesman for the Democrat Party.
 
Southern Man said:
That's not "CYA"; that's clarification. The fact is that Kerry's wound were self inflicted and minor, not worthy of a pH and certainly not worthy to get him out of his one year commitment. Kerry is a fraud, and thus the perfect spokesman for the Democrat Party.
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A wound being self-inflicted and/or minor in no way disqualifies it for a Purple Heart. It that were true, Bob Dole would not have his first PH, as that wound was both self-inflicted and minor.

The fact is, many Swift Boat guys received PHs for minor wounds. It was in no way unusual.

Doug Reese
 
Southern Man said:
From your link:

Louis Letson: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.
Click to expand...
Louis Letson was not present for that action, he only treated the wound.

His comments show that he is either a liar, or has a bad memory. I say this because he didn't even know what kind of boat Kerry was on that night, or that fact that Kerry only had a crew of two.

Oh, and those two don't agree with the good doctor's assesment of ths situation, and unlike the doctor, they were present.

Doug Reese
 
Southern Man said:
That's not "CYA"; that's clarification. The fact is that Kerry's wound were self inflicted and minor, not worthy of a pH and certainly not worthy to get him out of his one year commitment. Kerry is a fraud, and thus the perfect spokesman for the Democrat Party.
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"Conjecture."
 
Southern Man said:
That records were kept secret, then shown to Kerry's bum-boy reporter, then sealed again.

Have you ever asked yourself why Kerry hasn't made all of the records public, and why he took two years to show them to his reporter?

One wonders how much effort was made to sanitize his records.
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The "Conjecture" of a hypocrite.
 
Doug Reese said:
Louis Letson was not present for that action, he only treated the wound.

His comments show that he is either a liar, or has a bad memory. I say this because he didn't even know what kind of boat Kerry was on that night, or that fact that Kerry only had a crew of two.

Oh, and those two don't agree with the good doctor's assesment of ths situation, and unlike the doctor, they were present.

Doug Reese
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Welcome to the board, Doug.
 
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