The public plan... good article...

Ok I am skeptical about the public option, but I have a question. Why can france and germany pull this off at a lower per capita cost than we seem to be able to do? Are we just dense?


The answer is, we can. We already provide decent public health insurance for about 100 million people. I've routinely seen rightwingers claim we can't do it because Sweden or Denmark is "smaller" than us. I don't know where that talking point came from, or what this magical size is at which public insurance becomes unfeasible. I think that whole size argument is something that someone at CATO pulled out of their ass as a distraction that has no basis in evidence or facts.

"About 100 million people — 1 in 3 — now have government coverage through Medicaid, Medicare, the military and federal employee health plans. More than 10 million others are eligible for Medicaid but have not signed up."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-08-01-medicaid_x.htm

If we can provide decent public health insurance to 100 million people more cheaply than the private market can, I'd like to know why it can't be provided to 200 or 300 million people. Is there some magic upper threshold number? Of course there isn't. The whole size of a country argument is naturally just some talking point that got circulated on the interwebs about ten years ago, and is accepted as factual by the rightwing.
 
The answer is, we can. We already provide decent public health insurance for about 100 million people. I've routinely seen rightwingers claim we can't do it because Sweden or Denmark is "smaller" than us. I don't know where that talking point came from, or what this magical size is at which public insurance becomes unfeasible. I think that whole size argument is something that someone at CATO pulled out of their ass as a distraction that has no basis in evidence or facts.



If we can provide decent public health insurance to 100 million people more cheaply than the private market can, I'd like to know why it can't be provided to 200 or 300 million people. Is there some magic upper threshold number? Of course there isn't. The whole size of a country argument is naturally just some talking point that got circulated on the interwebs about ten years ago, and is accepted as factual by the rightwing.

The average cost of Medicare has risen by about 9% per year since Medicare came out. Private insurance it typically pegged about 1% higher per year. This is because the private side subsidizes the medicare 'cuts'.

I love how you pretend not to see the posts that already describe exactly why the population density matters. But like the good little leg humper you are going to ignore it. Just like Dung.

You also pretend that simply shifting people to medicare will somehow stop the cost increases. How are you going to do that gumby? IF the costs of medicare has risen by over 9% per year, what is going to stop that from continuing???
 
Same thing... population density. While their land mass is about the size of the US... the bulk of their population is condensed into their top ten cities.

Our ten largest cities account for about 8.5% of our population. Their top ten account for about 50% of their population.

To be clear... I am not stating that density is the SOLE reason. But it is foolish to believe it isn't a factor in costs.

That said... are you ever going to address my point or are you just going to keep scrambling to try and provide a 'gotcha' moment?

I can't help but notice you wouldn't address the scenario of the one city vs. the 25. Why is that???


SF - I'm not addressing hypothetical scenarios because they are nonsense. Population density has little to nothing to do with why we spend shitloads more per capita than any other developed country on healthcare. The case of Australia really blows your theory out of the water.

And on Australia, I'd note that not only does Australia have a much lower population density than the United States, but far fewer Australians live in urban areas than Americans. Your strained argument that Australia really is more densely populated than the United States based on your assessment of the "top 10" cities in each country, like your assertion that population density accounts for the disparities in per capita health care costs, is horseshit.
 
SF - I'm not addressing hypothetical scenarios because they are nonsense. Population density has little to nothing to do with why we spend shitloads more per capita than any other developed country on healthcare. The case of Australia really blows your theory out of the water.

And on Australia, I'd note that not only does Australia have a much lower population density than the United States, but far fewer Australians live in urban areas than Americans. Your strained argument that Australia really is more densely populated than the United States based on your assessment of the "top 10" cities in each country, like your assertion that population density accounts for the disparities in per capita health care costs, is horseshit.

Hey dipshit.... it is NOT a hypothetical. Their population is denser than ours. 50% of their population is in their top ten cites. 8.5% of ours is. Those are FACTS. So tell me how this fits in with your scenario that they are less dense than us. Please.... do tell... I could use a laugh.

You know density matters. You just don't have any talking points provided to you to combat this argument.

I am not saying Australia doesn't have some of the same problems with their smaller towns. They do. I also stated that density is not the SOLE reason for the differences. You, yet again, are making that up.... because you are a hack that is incapable of actually discussing the issue.

You continue to ignore the scenario I presented because you KNOW if you answer it truthfully it will validate what I stated. It is a simple question, but you are too afraid to answer it....

Don't be embarrassed, educate yourself. If you truly believe I am wrong... then answer the question and prove it. Do you truly think it is more cost effective for the one city of a million or the 25 cities.
 
also the libtards act as if cost aren't being shifted from mediscam to regular payers.

True... they also tout that medicare increases are below private insurance increases. Which is correct, but the reason is that insurance companies are shifting the costs. They have no one to shift the costs to if the private side is replaced by everyone in Medicare as Cypress suggests doing.
 
True... they also tout that medicare increases are below private insurance increases. Which is correct, but the reason is that insurance companies are shifting the costs. They have no one to shift the costs to if the private side is replaced by everyone in Medicare as Cypress suggests doing.


Since coming over to the liberal side about 2 or 3 years ago I see lack of business and economic sense as the major pitfall. These folks have little experience where rubber meets the road.
Acting as though a medicare premium payer pays $50 and the regular Joe pays his $100 and the medicare guy's other $50 as something good is beyond any educated person being able to agree.
 
1) Are you friggin kiddin? Tell me... Which is more cost effective... providing the same quality of health care for the million residents of Denver or the half million residents of the state of Alaska?

Think about the number of hospitals it would take... think about how many pieces of equipment it would take.

2) I have read the 'studies' on the costs of medical malpractice suits. You will find that they have common flaws (at least the ones I have seen cited by the left)

a) they tend to take the percentage of malpractice awards to total health care costs (many of the studies include social security spending as a 'health care cost').

b) the 'studies' I have seen ignore the defensive medicine as a portion of the effects from malpractice awards.

c) the 'studies' I have seen ignore the fact that ONE malpractice award is then turned into increases in not just the premiums of the doctor affected, but also other doctors. (which leads to defensive medicine)

4) the 'studies' also fail to comprehend that when the medical malpractice premiums see those raises across the board... those are then transferred to patients in terms of higher medical bills. Those higher charges then get reflected in higher individual insurance premiums.

But like I said, many on the left want to ignore the above. They want to pretend it doesn't exist. Why? Because the trial lawyers spend a lot of money convincing the Dems in DC that malpractice suits aren't 'significant'. The Dem politicians then parrot that sentiment to their kool-aid drinkers who then come back and spout that nonsense on message boards.
Have you seen ANY studies from the state of Texas which show that their citizens medical costs have gone down in the 5 years since tort reform? I haven't and have in fact heard legislators from the state of Texas indicate that there have been no savings because of tort reform.
 
I am sure Dung will be back to actually discuss his density comments sooner or later.


Actually, I decided I'd rather bang my head agin' this here wall. The current state of the record is that you claim that France and Germany (and presumably Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and United Kingdom) have lower per capita health care spending because of their population density. To support this assertion you cite to ECON 101 principles.

Until you have some actual evidence to support your assertion I'm inclined to keep bangin' my head agin' this here wall rather that to discuss the matter any further.
 
Have you seen ANY studies from the state of Texas which show that their citizens medical costs have gone down in the 5 years since tort reform? I haven't and have in fact heard legislators from the state of Texas indicate that there have been no savings because of tort reform.


Good luck with getting a response on this one.
 
Have you seen ANY studies from the state of Texas which show that their citizens medical costs have gone down in the 5 years since tort reform? I haven't and have in fact heard legislators from the state of Texas indicate that there have been no savings because of tort reform.

No, because AS I STATED, tort reform is only the first step. You have to follow up by getting the doctors to quit the defensive medicine. You also have to have the insurance companies reduce malpractice premiums accordingly. You also have to have the hospitals/doctors pass those reductions on to consumers.

tort reform by itself will not work. But as long as you have unlimited 'punitive' damages, you will have never ending defensive medicine for CYA. Bottom line, without tort reform, you will not see and end to defensive medicine, thus the average hospital visit will continue to escalate, which means individual premiums will continue to climb at the 9% per year for Medicare and 10% for private.

Costs HAVE to be addressed. This is the natural starting point.
 
Actually, I decided I'd rather bang my head agin' this here wall. The current state of the record is that you claim that France and Germany (and presumably Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and United Kingdom) have lower per capita health care spending because of their population density. To support this assertion you cite to ECON 101 principles.

Until you have some actual evidence to support your assertion I'm inclined to keep bangin' my head agin' this here wall rather that to discuss the matter any further.

Careful ya dumb hack, your strawman production is going to exceed Cypress if you keep up at this pace.

I said population density is a PART of why they are able to be lower. What is it that you cannot comprehend about that.

If you are too fucking ignorant to comprehend that their are cost efficiencies to having a denser population then just say so. I have asked you to answer a set of questions that will guide you down that path. Yet you refuse to answer them because you are a fucking coward. you know that if you answer honestly, it will back what I have stated with regard to density.

Just admit you are a fucking hack and be done with it.
 
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/10/26/the_public_plan_delusion_98860.html

"...These are as much as 30 percent lower than rates paid by private insurers, says the health care consulting firm Lewin Group. With such savings, the public plan could charge much lower premiums and attract lots of customers. But health costs wouldn't subside; hospitals and doctors would offset the public plan's artificially low reimbursements by raising fees to private insurers, as already occurs with Medicare. Premiums would increase because private insurers must cover costs to survive."

"As for administrative expenses, any advantage for the public plan is exaggerated, say critics. Part of the gap between private insurers and Medicare is statistical illusion: Because Medicare recipients have higher average health expenses ($10,003 in 2007) than the under-65 population ($3,946), its administrative costs are a smaller share of total spending. The public plan, with younger members, wouldn't enjoy this advantage.

Likewise, Medicare has low marketing costs because it's a monopoly. But a non-monopoly public plan would have to sell itself and would incur higher marketing costs. Private insurers' profits (included in administrative costs) also explain some of Medicare's cost advantage. But profits represent only 3 percent of the insurance industry's revenues. Moreover, accounting comparisons are misleading when they don't include the cost of Medicare's government-supplied investment capital. A public plan would also need investment capital. And suppose the public plan suffers losses. Congress would assuredly bail it out."

...

"From 1970 to 2007, Medicare spending per beneficiary rose 9.2 percent annually compared to the 10.4 percent of private insurers -- and the small difference partly reflects cost shifting."

How would they pay for the 'bail out?' Oh yeah, the same way they pay to provide, by raising taxes.

So, when the 'public option' puts the insurance companies out of business, who is going to pay the total difference between actual costs and government payouts? Oh yeah, the taxpayer. The same boob that's stuck with a plan that will fail.
 
Article from a dallas newspaper with references to studies that show premiums and costs have gone up since tort reform.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...s/DN-Landers_21bus.State.Edition1.9be351.html

Which states exactly what I did... that the tort reform has to be followed by what????

Malpractice premiums have to come down... this happened....

Doctors have to stop defensive medicine... this did not happen.

The latter means the individual will not see a decrease in their costs... because the defensive medicine is still being done.

Taking a piece of the puzzle and doing a 'study' on it, then proclaiming this piece is not the whole solution is ridiculous. It is a friggin PIECE. The reduction in malpractice premiums is a second piece. Doctors/hospitals reducing fees due to reduced malpractice insurance is a third. Doctors/hospitals reducing defensive medicine practices is another. They are all tied together.
 
Careful ya dumb hack, your strawman production is going to exceed Cypress if you keep up at this pace.

I said population density is a PART of why they are able to be lower. What is it that you cannot comprehend about that.

If you are too fucking ignorant to comprehend that their are cost efficiencies to having a denser population then just say so. I have asked you to answer a set of questions that will guide you down that path. Yet you refuse to answer them because you are a fucking coward. you know that if you answer honestly, it will back what I have stated with regard to density.

Just admit you are a fucking hack and be done with it.


Hilarious. Still lacking for either of your bullshit claims: evidence. I'm not sure what amazes me more, your original bullshit or the fact that you get upset when people call you on it.
 
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