The public plan... good article...

Cancel 2016.2

The Almighty
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/10/26/the_public_plan_delusion_98860.html

"...These are as much as 30 percent lower than rates paid by private insurers, says the health care consulting firm Lewin Group. With such savings, the public plan could charge much lower premiums and attract lots of customers. But health costs wouldn't subside; hospitals and doctors would offset the public plan's artificially low reimbursements by raising fees to private insurers, as already occurs with Medicare. Premiums would increase because private insurers must cover costs to survive."

"As for administrative expenses, any advantage for the public plan is exaggerated, say critics. Part of the gap between private insurers and Medicare is statistical illusion: Because Medicare recipients have higher average health expenses ($10,003 in 2007) than the under-65 population ($3,946), its administrative costs are a smaller share of total spending. The public plan, with younger members, wouldn't enjoy this advantage.

Likewise, Medicare has low marketing costs because it's a monopoly. But a non-monopoly public plan would have to sell itself and would incur higher marketing costs. Private insurers' profits (included in administrative costs) also explain some of Medicare's cost advantage. But profits represent only 3 percent of the insurance industry's revenues. Moreover, accounting comparisons are misleading when they don't include the cost of Medicare's government-supplied investment capital. A public plan would also need investment capital. And suppose the public plan suffers losses. Congress would assuredly bail it out."

...

"From 1970 to 2007, Medicare spending per beneficiary rose 9.2 percent annually compared to the 10.4 percent of private insurers -- and the small difference partly reflects cost shifting."
 
The concept of government providing legitimate competition was a farce from the beginning. Not having to actually be profitable, and the ability to get more and more tax money as needed guarantees it will always win any marketplace battle.

The public option is a slightly slower route to complete government takeover of healthcare.

Just like not capping salaries of execs who get taken over guarantees more takeovers.
 
Ok I am skeptical about the public option, but I have a question. Why can france and germany pull this off at a lower per capita cost than we seem to be able to do? Are we just dense?
 
Ok I am skeptical about the public option, but I have a question. Why can france and germany pull this off at a lower per capita cost than we seem to be able to do? Are we just dense?

Right now we have state by state private insurance cartels driving prices up.

Instead of a public option, we should trust bust in the states.
 
Ok I am skeptical about the public option, but I have a question. Why can france and germany pull this off at a lower per capita cost than we seem to be able to do? Are we just dense?

No... THEY are.... literally.

Germany is the size of Montana, France is about twice the size of Colorado. Their populations are denser. That is one of the reasons. Look at the other countries that are usually held up as examples of the universal care....they are the same.

The other factor is the litigious society we live in. Some on the left want to pretend that the costs of litigation and the defensive medicine that takes place purely for CYA doesn't add to our costs.

People should be able to recover damages, but uncapped 'punitive' damages do little other than raising premiums on everyone.
 
Right now we have state by state private insurance cartels driving prices up.

Instead of a public option, we should trust bust in the states.
I agree with this. I think that if we could shop in any state in the union for insurance we would drive prices down and put some less competitive companies out of business.
 
Right now we have state by state private insurance cartels driving prices up.

Instead of a public option, we should trust bust in the states.

Without question this is another of the major problems. In most states the top two insurance companies control about 90% of the insured. Bust up these monopolies. Allow plans to be sold across state lines. Portability should not just be from one plan to another, but also from one state to another.
 
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-10-25-uninsured_N.htm

"•Individuals and families who choose to pay a penalty instead of buying insurance. The Congressional Budget Office has not said how many people it believes would make the decision, but it estimates the government would collect $900 million in penalties in 2016.

About 48% of those penalties would come from people earning between 100% and 300% of poverty, or between $18,310 and $54,930 for a family of three, according to the budget agency. About 29% of the money would come from people earning more than five times the poverty line."
 
No... THEY are.... literally.

Germany is the size of Montana, France is about twice the size of Colorado. Their populations are denser. That is one of the reasons. Look at the other countries that are usually held up as examples of the universal care....they are the same.

The other factor is the litigious society we live in. Some on the left want to pretend that the costs of litigation and the defensive medicine that takes place purely for CYA doesn't add to our costs.

People should be able to recover damages, but uncapped 'punitive' damages do little other than raising premiums on everyone.


1) What in the hell does population density have to do with per capita health care spending? Seriously. It's one thing to say that France and Germany have lower per capita transportation spending because of their population density but quite another so attribute lower per capita health care spending to population density. Personally, I think that France and Germany have lower per capita health care spending because they speak French and German.

2) Read any of the widely available studies on the costs of medical malpractice on health care cost and you will discover that "many on the left" are absolutely right about the effects of medical malpractice on health care costs.
 
Without question this is another of the major problems. In most states the top two insurance companies control about 90% of the insured. Bust up these monopolies. Allow plans to be sold across state lines. Portability should not just be from one plan to another, but also from one state to another.


Busting up the de facto monopolies is a good thing.

Allowing plans to be sold across state lines is not in any way a good thing at all. You'd end up with a situation akin to what the credit card industry has done with respect to interest rates, the insurers would buy off a small state legislature that would pass extremely insurer friendly laws that would serve to screw the insured, every insurance company would set up shop in said state and sell shitty insurance everywhere and no one could do anything about it.
 
http://washingtontimes.com/news/200...arency-opaque-to-critics/?feat=home_headlines

If they have to hide the bill from the public, why in the world should we trust that it is in our best interest?

If the Dems continue to refuse to post the final bill on line for at least 48 hours prior to the vote (72 would be preferred).... then everyone should be against it... because being for something that no one has had a chance to review is simply idiotic.


Totally. What would the founding fathers think? Imagine bills not being made available in final form to the public for 48 hours on the internet prior to a vote. It's so unAmerican.
 
Busting up the de facto monopolies is a good thing.

Allowing plans to be sold across state lines is not in any way a good thing at all. You'd end up with a situation akin to what the credit card industry has done with respect to interest rates, the insurers would buy off a small state legislature that would pass extremely insurer friendly laws that would serve to screw the insured, every insurance company would set up shop in said state and sell shitty insurance everywhere and no one could do anything about it.

You're smoking crack. What you've stated above is in no way rational.
 
1) What in the hell does population density have to do with per capita health care spending? Seriously. It's one thing to say that France and Germany have lower per capita transportation spending because of their population density but quite another so attribute lower per capita health care spending to population density. Personally, I think that France and Germany have lower per capita health care spending because they speak French and German.

2) Read any of the widely available studies on the costs of medical malpractice on health care cost and you will discover that "many on the left" are absolutely right about the effects of medical malpractice on health care costs.

1) Are you friggin kiddin? Tell me... Which is more cost effective... providing the same quality of health care for the million residents of Denver or the half million residents of the state of Alaska?

Think about the number of hospitals it would take... think about how many pieces of equipment it would take.

2) I have read the 'studies' on the costs of medical malpractice suits. You will find that they have common flaws (at least the ones I have seen cited by the left)

a) they tend to take the percentage of malpractice awards to total health care costs (many of the studies include social security spending as a 'health care cost').

b) the 'studies' I have seen ignore the defensive medicine as a portion of the effects from malpractice awards.

c) the 'studies' I have seen ignore the fact that ONE malpractice award is then turned into increases in not just the premiums of the doctor affected, but also other doctors. (which leads to defensive medicine)

4) the 'studies' also fail to comprehend that when the medical malpractice premiums see those raises across the board... those are then transferred to patients in terms of higher medical bills. Those higher charges then get reflected in higher individual insurance premiums.

But like I said, many on the left want to ignore the above. They want to pretend it doesn't exist. Why? Because the trial lawyers spend a lot of money convincing the Dems in DC that malpractice suits aren't 'significant'. The Dem politicians then parrot that sentiment to their kool-aid drinkers who then come back and spout that nonsense on message boards.
 
You presented no rational argument about why selling insurance across state lines is bad.


I thought my argument was quite coherent and succinct: insurers would end up domiciling in as insurer-friendly a state they could buy, they would screw over their consumers as much as possible under the insurer-friendly home-state regulations and nothing could be done to prevent them from doing it.
 
I thought my argument was quite coherent and succinct: insurers would end up domiciling in as insurer-friendly a state they could buy, they would screw over their consumers as much as possible under the insurer-friendly home-state regulations and nothing could be done to prevent them from doing it.

Don't add competition because local politicians need thier hand out too and would screw it. Are you from New Orleans?
 
Busting up the de facto monopolies is a good thing.

Allowing plans to be sold across state lines is not in any way a good thing at all. You'd end up with a situation akin to what the credit card industry has done with respect to interest rates, the insurers would buy off a small state legislature that would pass extremely insurer friendly laws that would serve to screw the insured, every insurance company would set up shop in said state and sell shitty insurance everywhere and no one could do anything about it.

You stated this same insane bullshit the other day and I refuted it then. If you NORMALIZE the requirements in the 50 states, you would not have the above.

Second, if it is shitty for the consumer, they are NOT going to buy from that insurance company.

Third, if normalization did not occur, then the other states could still ban that insurance company with the shitty plan.

Bottom line, your argument is pure nonsense.
 
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