Food for thought from Paul Krugman

zoombwaz

Radical Moderate Populist
I would prefer to let Krugman's column speak for itself, but I think it's important to note what he says about the economic effects of addressing global warming: that it will not result in the destruction of the economy, as so many are shrilly screaming, only its reshuffling, but that the vested interests of the existing economy have loads of lobbyistds in place to portray the upcoming shuffling as an unequalled economic disaster. The interests of the new economy don't exist yet, and have no lobbyists.

It's amazing to me that people who tout the magic of the free market don't seem to think it can successfully adapt to a green economy. Interesting. On to Krugman's column:




Published on Monday, September 28, 2009 by The New York Times
"Cassandras of Climate"

by Paul Krugman

Every once in a while I feel despair over the fate of the planet. If you've been following climate science, you know what I mean: the sense that we're hurtling toward catastrophe but nobody wants to hear about it or do anything to avert it.

And here's the thing: I'm not engaging in hyperbole. These days, dire warnings aren't the delusional raving of cranks. They're what come out of the most widely respected climate models, devised by the leading researchers. The prognosis for the planet has gotten much, much worse in just the last few years.

What's driving this new pessimism? Partly it's the fact that some predicted changes, like a decline in Arctic Sea ice, are happening much faster than expected. Partly it's growing evidence that feedback loops amplifying the effects of man-made greenhouse gas emissions are stronger than previously realized. For example, it has long been understood that global warming will cause the tundra to thaw, releasing carbon dioxide, which will cause even more warming, but new research shows far more carbon dioxide locked in the permafrost than previously thought, which means a much bigger feedback effect.

The result of all this is that climate scientists have, en masse, become Cassandras - gifted with the ability to prophesy future disasters, but cursed with the inability to get anyone to believe them.

And we're not just talking about disasters in the distant future, either. The really big rise in global temperature probably won't take place until the second half of this century, but there will be plenty of damage long before then.

For example, one 2007 paper in the journal Science is titled "Model Projections of an Imminent Transition to a More Arid Climate in Southwestern North America" - yes, "imminent" - and reports "a broad consensus among climate models" that a permanent drought, bringing Dust Bowl-type conditions, "will become the new climatology of the American Southwest within a time frame of years to decades."

So if you live in, say, Los Angeles, and liked those pictures of red skies and choking dust in Sydney, Australia, last week, no need to travel. They'll be coming your way in the not-too-distant future.

Now, at this point I have to make the obligatory disclaimer that no individual weather event can be attributed to global warming. The point, however, is that climate change will make events like that Australian dust storm much more common.

In a rational world, then, the looming climate disaster would be our dominant political and policy concern. But it manifestly isn't. Why not?

Part of the answer is that it's hard to keep peoples' attention focused. Weather fluctuates - New Yorkers may recall the heat wave that pushed the thermometer above 90 in April - and even at a global level, this is enough to cause substantial year-to-year wobbles in average temperature. As a result, any year with record heat is normally followed by a number of cooler years: According to Britain's Met Office, 1998 was the hottest year so far, although NASA - which arguably has better data - says it was 2005. And it's all too easy to reach the false conclusion that the danger is past.

But the larger reason we're ignoring climate change is that Al Gore was right: This truth is just too inconvenient. Responding to climate change with the vigor that the threat deserves would not, contrary to legend, be devastating for the economy as a whole. But it would shuffle the economic deck, hurting some powerful vested interests even as it created new economic opportunities. And the industries of the past have armies of lobbyists in place right now; the industries of the future don't.

Nor is it just a matter of vested interests. It's also a matter of vested ideas. For three decades the dominant political ideology in America has extolled private enterprise and denigrated government, but climate change is a problem that can only be addressed through government action. And rather than concede the limits of their philosophy, many on the right have chosen to deny that the problem exists.

So here we are, with the greatest challenge facing mankind on the back burner, at best, as a policy issue. I'm not, by the way, saying that the Obama administration was wrong to push health care first. It was necessary to show voters a tangible achievement before next November. But climate change legislation had better be next.

And as I pointed out in my last column, we can afford to do this. Even as climate modelers have been reaching consensus on the view that the threat is worse than we realized, economic modelers have been reaching consensus on the view that the costs of emission control are lower than many feared.

So the time for action is now. O.K., strictly speaking it's long past. But better late than never.
© 2009 The New York Times

Paul Krugman is professor of Economics and International Affairs at Princeton University and a regular columnist for The New York Times. Krugman was the 2008 recipient of the Nobel Prize in Economics. He is the author of numerous books, including The Conscience of A Liberal, and his most recent, The Return of Depression Economics.
 
Certain corporate elements of America does not want our economy converted to a green economy. It is not in their best interests as corporations hence they program us to believe it is not in our best interests. And we become their tools and feel self rightious about it all.
 
I would prefer to let Krugman's column speak for itself, but I think it's important to note what he says about the economic effects of addressing global warming: that it will not result in the destruction of the economy, as so many are shrilly screaming, only its reshuffling, but that the vested interests of the existing economy have loads of lobbyistds in place to portray the upcoming shuffling as an unequalled economic disaster. The interests of the new economy don't exist yet, and have no lobbyists.

It's amazing to me that people who tout the magic of the free market don't seem to think it can successfully adapt to a green economy. Interesting. On to Krugman's column:




.

and you call others stupid, uninformed etc....this is the most stupid comment i've read all day.....if it was the free market and NOT government forcing the change, then your comment would makes sense....

many corporations are currently embracing the change, its all you ignorant far lefties who think corps evil that ingore this fact and you also ignore than many "green" ideas are pure bullshit and are only money makers for snake oil salesman like al snore
 
and you call others stupid, uninformed etc....this is the most stupid comment i've read all day.....if it was the free market and NOT government forcing the change, then your comment would makes sense....

many corporations are currently embracing the change, its all you ignorant far lefties who think corps evil that ingore this fact and you also ignore than many "green" ideas are pure bullshit and are only money makers for snake oil salesman like al snore


You are truly clueless , so trained to parrot the corporate line that you have lost the ability to think for yourself, if i n fact you ever had it. You have bought into the GOP's "supply side" nonsense for so long that you missed its complete repudiation by the voters.

I'll try to make it easy for you: demand drives the economy, not supply, and it doesn't matter where an economic impetus comes from, the market or the government, the efect will be the same, if there is a demand. Al Gore couldn't be making money if there didn't exist a demand for what he's selling, and your claiming it is snake oil doesn't make it so. Prove that it is, or quit your baselesss whining.

There have been claims that a public option would destroy the profit-driven market for health care. Nonsense. Even if the government banned it outright, the market would not cease to be, but would become a black market. BTW, Obama has no intention of even trying to implement such a ban, because he knows it's an impossibility. What the insurance companies are afraid of is that the public option would be so popular that they would be forced to lower their rates to be competitive, and they would have to kiss the days of obscene profits goodbye.

Another poster from the right claimed the government was not a proper source of competition, which is demonstrably false, and shows only the poster's ignorance of history, which has shown that competition in the market ONLY exists through government regulation. I defy anybody on this forum to show me an instance where an unregulated market has led to anything but price-fixing and other forms of collusion, and headed in any direction other than monopoly. You can't, because it has never happened. That's why the founders assigned Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce in the first Article of the Constitution. An unregulated market leads to the "too big to fail" situation, where an entire sector is on the verge of collapse because of a combination of shady deals and incompetence, requiring a bail-out of taxpayer money, such as the Bush administration's TARP program. Since we the taxpayers gave the banking sector tonsd of money, and got nothing in return, when we should have obtained control of those banks through our elected representatives (which is not socialism, just value received for money paid, ie capitalism), we paid something and got nothing. There are several legal terms for that situation: theft, fraud, and robbery come to mind.

I'd like to see somebody prove Krugman is wrong, and I mean proof, not empty slogans. Show me some critical thought.
 
Actually, the green economy is just the next vehicle of creating the next asset bubble with fascist assistance and fearmongering as enforcement.

GE stands to make a bundle from it.

nobody is more firmly entrencehed than ge.

Co2 based global warming is a lie.
 
Actually, the green economy is just the next vehicle of creating the next asset bubble with fascist assistance and fearmongering as enforcement.

GE stands to make a bundle from it.

nobody is more firmly entrencehed than ge.

Co2 based global warming is a lie.

It doesn't create any significant wealth. If we drilled for more oil and natural gas and built more nuclear plants there would be the same or better "green" effect, yet GDP would improve and we'd have less expensive energy costs. That's why liberals don't want it.
 
It doesn't create any significant wealth. If we drilled for more oil and natural gas and built more nuclear plants there would be the same or better "green" effect, yet GDP would improve and we'd have less expensive energy costs. That's why liberals don't want it.

This administration is doing everything it can so america cannot recover from this recession they caused.

According to the globalists in charge, america must be weakened so other superpowers can be part of the Global Coalition. The values of the New World Order will be totalitarianism. The constitution will be effectively ripped up.

part of the brainwash is to make sure even Americans feel that America "deserves it". Even though that's really blaming the victims of internal corruption perpetrated by the central banking system, large corporations, and the paid off politicians.

Our elite have become merely a tool of our own enslavement.
 
And by the way, all of this is reversible. When it's over, it will have just been a bad dream.

When our leaders care about americans more than fascist notions of "international order" all will be well. And that's happening quite soon.
 
This administration is doing everything it can so america cannot recover from this recession they caused.

According to the globalists in charge, america must be weakened so other superpowers can be part of the Global Coalition. The values of the New World Order will be totalitarianism. The constitution will be effectively ripped up.

part of the brainwash is to make sure even Americans feel that America "deserves it". Even though that's really blaming the victims of internal corruption perpetrated by the central banking system, large corporations, and the paid off politicians.

Our elite have become merely a tool of our own enslavement.
Aside from your conspiracy theory I agree completely. I was talking to my wife about this during breakfast: go with the assumption that Liberals hate America, and are therefore trying to weaken and destroy it, then you'll be able to predict how they will handle any issue.
 
Certain corporate elements of America does not want our economy converted to a green economy. It is not in their best interests as corporations hence they program us to believe it is not in our best interests. And we become their tools and feel self rightious about it all.
It'snot just "Corporations". It's corporations with a vested interest. Probably most corporations have nothing to say because their not in the energy production industry. The Auto companies don't really give a shit about the oil companies. Whomever can provide them a consistant source of fuel and the infrastructure to deliver that fuel is what they'll design their engines to consume and so on. Green industries will have to do more than prove themselves on environmental issues. They will also need to prove themselves as being viable, cost affective alternatives to overcome the carbon based coalition that opposes them. Till that happens humanity is not going to give up it's carbon based fuel addiction until it absolutely has no other choice.
 
and you call others stupid, uninformed etc....this is the most stupid comment i've read all day.....if it was the free market and NOT government forcing the change, then your comment would makes sense....

many corporations are currently embracing the change, its all you ignorant far lefties who think corps evil that ingore this fact and you also ignore than many "green" ideas are pure bullshit and are only money makers for snake oil salesman like al snore
Well your second sentence was a good argument. Your third sentence demonstrates you probably know as little about green economy issues as the "Far Lefties" your ranting about.
 
It'snot just "Corporations". It's corporations with a vested interest. Probably most corporations have nothing to say because their not in the energy production industry. The Auto companies don't really give a shit about the oil companies. Whomever can provide them a consistant source of fuel and the infrastructure to deliver that fuel is what they'll design their engines to consume and so on. Green industries will have to do more than prove themselves on environmental issues. They will also need to prove themselves as being viable, cost affective alternatives to overcome the carbon based coalition that opposes them. Till that happens humanity is not going to give up it's carbon based fuel addiction until it absolutely has no other choice.

But there are also corporation vested in the Green Movement. And they will probably never have to prove viability, as their mission will be deemed more important than their viability. We will continue to see taxpayer money going to any idiot with an inside track to the power elite and a nice green logo on top of it. Think Al Gore and his car company theiving from the public coffers.
 
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It doesn't create any significant wealth. If we drilled for more oil and natural gas and built more nuclear plants there would be the same or better "green" effect, yet GDP would improve and we'd have less expensive energy costs. That's why liberals don't want it.
That's an ideological argument you can't defend.
 
But there are also corporation vested in the Green Movement. And they will probably never have to prove viability, as their mission will be deemed more important than their viability. We will continue to see taxpayer money going to any idiot with an inside track to the power elite and a nice green logo on top of it. Think Al Gore and his car company theiving from the public coffers.
That's just a plain out right silly comment. A company or corporation might get by on political patronage for a short period of time but ultimately it must produce vial goods and/or service which the public is willing to consumer or it will not exist for long and that's an economic fact of life.
 
That's just a plain out right silly comment. A company or corporation might get by on political patronage for a short period of time but ultimately it must produce vial goods and/or service which the public is willing to consumer or it will not exist for long and that's an economic fact of life.

No it's not. Connected companies get bailed out in perpetuity. Current events disprove your argument.
 
That's an ideological argument you can't defend.
Sure I can. Just look at the decisions that liberals have made and are making and put them to my test: open borders, socialized medicine, closing down Gitmo, Fannie Mae/ Freddie Mac disasters, increased taxes, Cap'n Trade, Obama's apology tour, his speech at the UN which precipitated missile exercises in Iran, gay marriage. The list goes on and on.
 
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