NASA did not want Artemis

[Walt]

NASA did not want Artemis... Or more exactly the last time they wanted it was in the 1970's. It is the design that NASA came up with at the end of the Apollo missions to replace Apollo. The reason it was not built in the 1970's was that NASA decided that it was more important to build Skylab and then the Space Shuttle. Besides, budgets were being cut to the bone.

So then NASA started talking about shutting down its manufacturing facilities in Alabama... But Senator Shelby (Republican from Alabama) would have none of that. He demanded that the this instant antique be built.

It has a stretched version of the Shuttle's external fuel tanks. It reuses refurbished Shuttle engines. Not just the design, but these are actual engines used in Shuttle launches that have been sitting around since the Shuttle stopped needing them. There are also Shuttle designed solid state boosters... Which guess what... Are also stretched. Rather than design something new, they just stretch everything.

It will all cost $2 billion a launch. That is not enough to hire a testing staff of engineers, so NASA engineers have to do a second unpaid job. We have 70 year old men who are working 80 hour weeks. This is killing people from exhaustion.

There is a better alternative, that was not around in the 1970's. NASA has spawned a whole crowd of private companies that can do much of this cheaper. Space X's Falcoln Rocket has two thirds the cargo capacity of SLS (the rocket system for Artemis), and Space X's Starship will be closer to two times SLS.

But the main benefit would be the cost. Space X is looking to drop costs of the Starship launches to $10 million. Even if it takes 10 launches to equal one SLS launch, that still cuts costs by 95%. It is hard not to save money by going with SpaceX.

And that money savings could be used by NASA to hire more scientists, and engineers... Younger scientists and engineers. Make NASA less of a retirement community.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

NASA did not want Artemis... Or more exactly the last time they wanted it was in the 1970's. It is the design that NASA came up with at the end of the Apollo missions to replace Apollo. The reason it was not built in the 1970's was that NASA decided that it was more important to build Skylab and then the Space Shuttle. Besides, budgets were being cut to the bone.

So then NASA started talking about shutting down its manufacturing facilities in Alabama... But Senator Shelby (Republican from Alabama) would have none of that. He demanded that the this instant antique be built.....

Those who complain about the military budget should realize this same truth: Congress often tells the military "either take this or get nothing".

 

[Walt]

Those who complain about the military budget should realize this same truth: Congress often tells the military "either take this or get nothing".

There is an Alaska National Guard post that has two free car washes for National Guardsmen. Most Guard posts do not have a free car wash, but this one did. Guardsmen would show up for training, and get their car washed at the same time. There was a private who said something about this to Senator Stevens, who thought it was a request for a free car wash. He wrote an earmark demanding a free car wash be made at the post. So the Alaska National Guard had to build a second free car wash. You can pick which free car wash you want you car washed for free at.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There is an Alaska National Guard post that has two free car washes for National Guardsmen. Most Guard posts do not have a free car wash, but this one did. Guardsmen would show up for training, and get their car washed at the same time. There was a private who said something about this to Senator Stevens, who thought it was a request for a free car wash. He wrote an earmark demanding a free car wash be made at the post. So the Alaska National Guard had to build a second free car wash. You can pick which free car wash you want you car washed for free at.

Americans tend to blame the face, not the institutions. While the White House, and all Federal agencies, certainly have power, it's Congress that controls the purse strings.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Very sad really, huge amounts of pork paid to contractors and politicians on the take.

https://arstechnica.com/science/202...ng-to-happen-to-nasa-but-maybe-also-the-best/

 

[Jarod]

NASA did not want Artemis... Or more exactly the last time they wanted it was in the 1970's. It is the design that NASA came up with at the end of the Apollo missions to replace Apollo. The reason it was not built in the 1970's was that NASA decided that it was more important to build Skylab and then the Space Shuttle. Besides, budgets were being cut to the bone.

So then NASA started talking about shutting down its manufacturing facilities in Alabama... But Senator Shelby (Republican from Alabama) would have none of that. He demanded that the this instant antique be built.

It has a stretched version of the Shuttle's external fuel tanks. It reuses refurbished Shuttle engines. Not just the design, but these are actual engines used in Shuttle launches that have been sitting around since the Shuttle stopped needing them. There are also Shuttle designed solid state boosters... Which guess what... Are also stretched. Rather than design something new, they just stretch everything.

It will all cost $2 billion a launch. That is not enough to hire a testing staff of engineers, so NASA engineers have to do a second unpaid job. We have 70 year old men who are working 80 hour weeks. This is killing people from exhaustion.

There is a better alternative, that was not around in the 1970's. NASA has spawned a whole crowd of private companies that can do much of this cheaper. Space X's Falcoln Rocket has two thirds the cargo capacity of SLS (the rocket system for Artemis), and Space X's Starship will be closer to two times SLS.

But the main benefit would be the cost. Space X is looking to drop costs of the Starship launches to $10 million. Even if it takes 10 launches to equal one SLS launch, that still cuts costs by 95%. It is hard not to save money by going with SpaceX.

And that money savings could be used by NASA to hire more scientists, and engineers... Younger scientists and engineers. Make NASA less of a retirement community.

I hope to see it go up tomorrow.

 

[Walt]

I hope to see it go up tomorrow.

It is not the way back to the Moon I would have wanted, but it is a way back to the Moon, which I desperately want.

 

[Life is Golden]

Those who complain about the military budget should realize this same truth: Congress often tells the military "either take this or get nothing".

Did you see the story about the Navy SEAL who died after Hell week?

 

[Walt]

Did you see the story about the Navy SEAL who died after Hell week?

I was surprised there were not medical personnel on the scene for Hell Week, and especially at the end. They push people past their limits, and should take every care that those people survive. He was spitting up blood, and unable to breath, but they still did not call an ambulance?

It is just sad, but I will not blame Congress for that. Hopefully Congress will make sure the Navy fixes the problems.

 

[Life is Golden]

I was surprised there were not medical personnel on the scene for Hell Week, and especially at the end. They push people past their limits, and should take every care that those people survive. He was spitting up blood, and unable to breath, but they still did not call an ambulance?

It is just sad, but I will not blame Congress for that. Hopefully Congress will make sure the Navy fixes the problems.

It was a horrible story. I couldn't believe it happened. They said he coughed up a 32 ounce container of bloody spit and his lungs were filled with fluid.

 

[Hawkeye10]

If NASA blows the thing up SAT the program will likely be over.

 

[Walt]

It was a horrible story. I couldn't believe it happened. They said he coughed up a 32 ounce container of bloody spit and his lungs were filled with fluid.

You can drown in a tablespoon of liquid, and he coughed up 64 tablespoons of blood... There is no way that does not require immediate medical treatment.

But even if he were walking around seemingly fine, it is only common sense to have a doctor, or at least a medic check everyone out at the end of Hell Week. There should also be medical personnel there while Hell Week is happening to look for the signs of trouble (like coughing up 32 ounces of blood), and to give first aid.

I just assumed all this was happening. But I was wrong. Hopefully the next time they have a Hell Week, it will be happening.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Did you see the story about the Navy SEAL who died after Hell week?

Not until you mentioned it. He made it then died: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/us/navy-seal-training-death.html

The physical brutality is a reality for our special ops people being sent to war. Movies like "12 Strong" and "Lone Survivor" don't come close to it.

In this case, the death of Seaman Kyle Mullen, and the injuries of the others, is a failure of leadership and oversight. With all the tech we have these days, either they need to be wired for monitoring or regularly checked by doctors.

He could have quit, but he really wanted this which should tell you something in itself.

Nowhere close to Hell Week, but Naval flight training is tough on people. About a third quit or were medically-stamped "Not Aeronautically Adapted (NAA)". Usually due to airsickness, but sometimes inability to cope with the stress or lacking ability. If a student threw up, instructors were required to return if they felt the student couldn't complete the flight.

Students who frequently became airsick (i.e. every flight) were given the option of quitting or going to NAMI for what was affectionally known as "Spin & Puke training". The students go through a course of daily aversion training which included injecting them with something to make them nauseous then spin them until they puke...at least in my day. The link below shows the Navy has mellowed a bit since the late 70s. LOL

https://www.pnj.com/story/news/military/2017/02/19/chair-helps-conquer-motion-sickness/97991014/

I had a graduate who still had a problem. He was literally trying to fly with one hand while puking in a bag with the other. It was one of the few times I had to return. He was a great guy; huge football player for the Naval Academy and very dedicated. He's the type that would end up like Seaman Kyle Mullen if someone let him. They aren't prisoners, but the leadership is responsible for their safety. Someone seriously fucked to end up with a dead person in training.

 

[Walt]

If NASA blows the thing up SAT the program will likely be over.

Almost certainly it will continue using SpaceX.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Almost certainly it will continue using SpaceX.

The space station will likely be dead in a year or two, and we are not going to Mars anytime soon. Going forwards manned space travel is probably going to be the domain of the Chinese and their friends.

I dont have any confidence in NASA's will or ability to conduct Artemis.

The Chinese will rub it in.

 

[Walt]

Going forwards manned space travel is probably going to be the domain of the Chinese and their friends.

SpaceX and other private companies will dominate space travel, so you would be wrong. The Chinese are way behind.

 

[Hawkeye10]

SpaceX and other private companies will dominate space travel, so you would be wrong. The Chinese are way behind.

There is no economic model that works other than very short low orbit excursions for the rich, which the Save the Planet types will end.

 

[Walt]

There is no economic model that works other than very short low orbit excursions for the rich, which the Save the Planet types will end.

You might be right in the long term, but you are definitely wrong in the short term.

 

[Hawkeye10]

You might be right in the long term, but you are definitely wrong in the short term.

Well right now they are still pretending that the Space Station will be operational for another decade, which is highly unlikely. Once that is over the entire astronaut program has no justification if NASA cant/wont accomplish Artemis.

 

[Walt]

Well right now they are still pretending that the Space Station will be operational for another decade, which is highly unlikely. Once that is over the entire astronaut program has no justification if NASA cant/wont accomplish Artemis.

In theory, three dummies will soon orbit the Moon, and return to Earth. Then in 2024, four humans will orbit the Moon, and return to Earth. They will go over thousand times further from Earth than any human has been in the last 50 years. Then in 2025, they will land on the south pole of the Moon.

With all the money spent on the SLS, it still cannot deliver the Human Landing System to the Moon. The HLS will be delivered by SpaceX, as will the Lunar Gateway, a space station around the Moon, that could carry astronauts to Mars.

Which makes an interesting segue into SpaceX.

SpaceX already has its Falcon rocket delivering satellites into orbit, and delivering almost all of NASA's astronauts and cargo into space. The SpaceX Starship rockets should be working by the end of the year. They are bigger than the Saturn V's, and are fully reusable. Their cost might be as low as $10 million per launch, but even if they have 100% cost overruns, it will still be 1% the price of what everyone else is doing. It is designed as the rocket that will get people to Mars (either paid for by NASA or by Musk).

Meanwhile China hopes to get a robot to Mars... Which we already have done a dozen times... In 5 to 10 years.