The old people who support War on Ukraine

dukkha said:
Ukraine changed from a neutral country to a increasingly militarized pro-west regime.
Im familiar wih the speech. It's for internal consumption.
Im sure he felt that way, but acting and feeling are 2 different things

Or as Trump told Putin
"I know you want Ukraine but you are not going to get it". That's another sad chapter as well.
Trump was unable to use ANY diplomacy with Putin due to the Russian hoax.
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You lost my point. Was NATO expansion wise or not? I think Latvia et al are very happy to be in NATO.
No way to say if the expansion was a contributing factor in the Russian invasion.
Leadership in Ukraine should have known they were in a precarious situation. They fucked up. But if they somehow persevere they will have won their independence.
 
anonymoose said:
You lost my point. Was NATO expansion wise or not? I think Latvia et al are very happy to be in NATO.
No way to say if the expansion was a contributing factor in the Russian invasion.
Leadership in Ukraine should have known they were in a precarious situation. They fucked up. But if they somehow persevere they will have won their independence.
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No way to say if the expansion was a contributing factor in the Russian invasion.
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Russia has been screaming about it since the beggining of Clinton's NATO expansion.
Ukraine is a defacto NATO state, with promise of becoming a member.
 
dukkha said:
so why did he wait 30 years? Ukraine was getting more and more militarized.
Why just annex Crimea> why not go for it all, especially since Javelins and US aid started big time after 2014?
Why send letters warning of redlines?
whatever he "wanted" wasn't enough to make him go after Ukraine until now. why now and not the when Ukraine was easier to take?
If this was his big plan -again why wait until Ukraine was getting NATO weapons?

The reason is clear. Kyiv had become an existential threat due to a pro-west militarized Ukraine
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He didn't wait 30 years.

Putin has only been in power since 1999

Since then, Putin put down a separatist movements in Chechnya.

He invaded Georgia in 2008.

He invaded Crimea in 2014.

He invaded Ukraine in 2022.

He solidified his hegemony over the vassal state Belarus during the last two decades.

And he used the last 20 years to rebuild a dysfunctional and decrepit Russian military into world class capabilities, and capable of projecting power..


What on God's green earth made you assume Putin has been sitting on his hands for 30 years??
 
Cypress said:
He didn't wait 30 years.

Putin has only been in power since 1999

Since then, Putin put down a separatist movements in Chechnya.

He invaded Georgia in 2008.

He invaded Crimea in 2014.

He invaded Ukraine in 2022.

He solidified his hegemony over the vassal state Belarus during the last two decades.

And he used the last 20 years to rebuild a dysfunctional and decrepit Russian military into world class capabilities, and capable of projecting power..


What on God's green earth made you assume Putin has been sitting on his hands for 30 years??
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sorry I was thinking of USSR -30 years. Georgia and Check are small affairs

If he wanted Ukraine he would have gone after Ukraine long before now.
Putin did try diplomacy -more then Biden ever did ( Trump could not) and Obama tried diplomacy
If Ukraine was the big get, he certainly would not have waited almost 25 years.

So why now>because everything changed as a result of the Maidan.
Ukraine kicked out a president who tried to be neutral, Kyiv became belligerent to the east
not even offering autonomy. that's why the Separatist war broke out.

Trump impeachment was a clue -look at the testimony by Vindman and Fiona Hill -they supported impeaching Trump simply because he held back on weapons pending getting Zelensky to look at Biden's crooked arrangement. There was no war with Russia then -but even temporary delays got their panties in a bunch. They wanted Ukraine to militarize and become a proxy NATO state NOW.
Unconditional weapons flows

Russia sees all this, sees Ukraine becoming a hostile western dominated state -
the proximate cause for the invasion -not some speech from 2005
 
dukkha said:
no. NATO expansion got us here.
That along with complicit overthrow of the Ukraine govt at the Maidan
which begat the war in Donbas - which turned Kyiv into a hostile state against Russia
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More aggressive expansion would have prevented this.
There's no perfection in this world so overboard is always better than half-ass...ALWAYS.

I profane of timid moderation as you know.
 
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