Make the Fathers Pay

[ThatOwlWoman]

I'm fine with the State paying as long as forced DNA testing is court ordered and not universal.

And what will we do if the embryo is the result of stranger rape or incest where the victim still lives in the home under the control of the rapist?

 

[Cypress]

Why do you think that RWers don't want those things? Because they believe that women's place is at home and not in the workplace competing with ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶t̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ men. Make working onerous enough, along with forced birth, and they'll get their way.

"I've got mine and f*ck everyone else."

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Damo,

This isn't criminal law, it is simple responsibility. Basically, we provide a means to find out without giving the government access to a database full of the DNA by creating a third party system I described. Pretending I didn't address your "concern" that someone may say you contributed DNA when you say you did not doesn't change that I did. It isn't even skin off your nose, a bit of spit and you're done. Making sure that folks that do contribute to creating children pay for those children is clearly something that is of interest to the state, and of society. Giving loser men who refuse to take responsibility a pass because someone "may lie" isn't good enough.

Then any woman could force any man to go take a test.

All based on she said he did.

Not enough.

 

[Damocles]

Hello Damo,



Then any woman could force any man to go take a test.

All based on she said he did.

Not enough.

Not really, you make them pay for it if they "guess" wrong, it will stop most false accusations. The reality is, this isn't onerous, and we need to ensure that folks that create life pay for that life. Responsibility for the life doesn't end with the woman. As a bonus, most men would know that the child they are paying for is actually theirs. Currently a simple lawsuit can cause men to pay for children that aren't even DNA related, especially if they are married.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman

And what will we do if the embryo is the result of stranger rape or incest where the victim still lives in the home under the control of the rapist?

Two very different situations.

The law is the best recourse, though it is not perfect and can never be so.

Abortions should be allowed. If a woman chooses to carry, she is assuming responsibility. If she can show reasonable cause, he should be forced to take a test and if it shows he is the father then it should be shared responsibility.

Mandatory testing only with a court order.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Damo,

Not really, you make them pay for it if they "guess" wrong, it will stop most false accusations. The reality is, this isn't onerous, and we need to ensure that folks that create life pay for that life. Responsibility for the life doesn't end with the woman. As a bonus, most men would know that the child they are paying for is actually theirs. Currently a simple lawsuit can cause men to pay for children that aren't even DNA related, especially if they are married.

Seems like a role reversal here. I am arguing the more libertarian position and you the more government control position.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

However the money they make is almost 100% from abortion and pretending otherwise will, well, end PP if you don't start funding the contraceptives, etc. though some other means.

Credible source for this incredible claim?

You do realize that PP is a nonprofit, right? Most of their funding for family planning and STD testing/treatment comes from Medicaid. The rest is from private donors and a few other government agencies. Zero govt. funds are used to provide abortion services.

The majority of Planned Parenthood's federal funding comes from Medicaid, which provides health insurance for low-income Americans. Planned Parenthood patients receive services including birth control, cancer screenings and STD testing through Medicaid at low or no cost, depending on the patient's income and the state they live in. Planned Parenthood is then reimbursed by the federal government, according to its website.

Planned Parenthood also receives funding through Title X, the nation's family planning program. It's named for its section in the federal Public Health Service Act and became law in 1970.

Planned Parenthood affiliates serve an estimated 40 percent of Title X patients each year. That comes out to about 1.5 million patients who annually receive services like well-woman exams and HIV testing at Planned Parenthood clinics through the health care plan.

The organization also receives funding through reimbursements from patients' private insurance companies and from patients who pay out-of-pocket for their health care services.

Private donations and grants make up a small share of the nonprofit's funding. These donations help Planned Parenthood maintain its sliding-scale fee system, which allows it to charge for its services based on a patient's income.

Source: What is Planned Parenthood? And how exactly is it funded?

 

[Damocles]

Hello Damo,



Seems like a role reversal here. I am arguing the more libertarian position and you the more government control position.

I am arguing the position of responsibility. Folks who create life should have to pay for that life, those who object should be forced to take that responsibility. Forcing one party in the transaction to be solely responsible is disgusting. And no, it does not necessarily need to be government, as I noted earlier. In fact I would only support this if the government never had access to the information used to determine this. (They don't get to have a DNA database of every American).

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Hello Damo,



Then any woman could force any man to go take a test.

All based on she said he did.

Not enough.

Yes, it is. As long as the accused father doesn't have to pay for the testing, what's the issue? A woman takes a pregnancy test and discovers it's positive. She goes to the non-govt. agency (that Damo mentioned) and says that Justin is the father. She has to undergo amniocentesis or other invasive procedure to retrieve the DNA of her fetus, at no expense to herself. The agency contacts Justin and sends him a DNA test kit, that he returns at no expense to him. It's either positive or negative for paternity. If it's positive, he has to reimburse the agency for the costs of the testing, and he's now on the hook for her medical expenses and time off from her job for pregnancy and birth-related reasons. At birth he is given the option of adopting the child or paying child support if mom wants to keep him/her. In return he gets visitation rights if desired.

Attorneys are going to LOVE this. Esp. so if the DNA dad adopts and then tries to get child support from the mother.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Hello ThatOwlWoman



Two very different situations.

The law is the best recourse, though it is not perfect and can never be so.

Abortions should be allowed. If a woman chooses to carry, she is assuming responsibility. If she can show reasonable cause, he should be forced to take a test and if it shows he is the father then it should be shared responsibility.

Mandatory testing only with a court order.

Missouri's new anti-abortion law makes no exceptions for incest or rape. How do you propose that a woman name her rapist if she has no clue who broke in while she was sleeping? How would a 12-yo pregnant-by-her-perv-stepdad get the money to get a court order to have him tested, assuming she had the guts to do so?

 

[leaningright]

Not really, you make them pay for it if they "guess" wrong, it will stop most false accusations. The reality is, this isn't onerous, and we need to ensure that folks that create life pay for that life. Responsibility for the life doesn't end with the woman. As a bonus, most men would know that the child they are paying for is actually theirs. Currently a simple lawsuit can cause men to pay for children that aren't even DNA related, especially if they are married.

Damo, you are being far too logical.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Damo,

I am arguing the position of responsibility. Folks who create life should have to pay for that life, those who object should be forced to take that responsibility. Forcing one party in the transaction to be solely responsible is disgusting. And no, it does not necessarily need to be government, as I noted earlier. In fact I would only support this if the government never had access to the information used to determine this. (They don't get to have a DNA database of every American).

I am arguing for an individual's right to be secure in their person.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Anybody who procreates in this current environment is a child abuser.

Contraception is best.
Abortion is second best.
And even celibacy is better than dropping kids in the toxic environment of present-day America.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

Yes, it is. As long as the accused father doesn't have to pay for the testing, what's the issue? A woman takes a pregnancy test and discovers it's positive. She goes to the non-govt. agency (that Damo mentioned) and says that Justin is the father. She has to undergo amniocentesis or other invasive procedure to retrieve the DNA of her fetus, at no expense to herself. The agency contacts Justin and sends him a DNA test kit, that he returns at no expense to him. It's either positive or negative for paternity. If it's positive, he has to reimburse the agency for the costs of the testing, and he's now on the hook for her medical expenses and time off from her job for pregnancy and birth-related reasons. At birth he is given the option of adopting the child or paying child support if mom wants to keep him/her. In return he gets visitation rights if desired.

Attorneys are going to LOVE this. Esp. so if the DNA dad adopts and then tries to get child support from the mother.

Amniocentesis is not done until 15-20 weeks. An abortion could be done prior to that. Should the father be required to pay support even though he does not have the option to abort, but the mother does? Why should the father have full responsibility but have no say in continuing the pregnancy? Maybe the father should only have to accept partial responsibility if he would have preferred that the pregnancy was terminated, and had been given the chance to indicate so.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWomanm,

Missouri's new anti-abortion law makes no exceptions for incest or rape. How do you propose that a woman name her rapist if she has no clue who broke in while she was sleeping? How would a 12-yo pregnant-by-her-perv-stepdad get the money to get a court order to have him tested, assuming she had the guts to do so?

The law is not perfect and we have no logical expectation that it ever could be.

 

[leaningright]

You mean like fire bombing reproductive health care clinics and killing the staff? I agree.

BTW, only 2-3% of what PP does has to do with abortion. The rest is reproductive health care like contraceptives, education, testing for STDs, help with fertility issues, and family planning. This is all provided at little to no cost to clients. Guess what? Even a physician knows that contraceptives prevent abortions.

From some of the stuff I’ve read this morning one is “damned if they do and damned if they don’t … at least according to what some on the left have said on other threads.

I also think that second paragraph needs to be in neon lights for many on the right to see. PP, in the minds of too many, has been solely connected with abortions and as you have stated the truth that they provide so much more.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,



Amniocentesis is not done until 15-20 weeks. An abortion could be done prior to that. Should the father be required to pay support even though he does not have the option to abort, but the mother does? Why should the father have full responsibility but have no say in continuing the pregnancy? Maybe the father should only have to accept partial responsibility if he would have preferred that the pregnancy was terminated, and had been given the chance to indicate so.

I know when amnios are done. We are assuming here that if abortion becomes illegal, how do we force fathers to become responsible for the life they help create.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

From some of the stuff I’ve read this morning one is “damned if they do and damned if they don’t … at least according to what some on the left have said on other threads.

I also think that second paragraph needs to be in neon lights for many on the right to see. PP, in the minds of too many, has been solely connected with abortions and as you have stated the truth that they provide so much more.

They do. My own family has used their services not for abortion but for well-woman check ups, contraception, and cancer screenings. The RW has demonized PP for many years, even before Roe v Wade.

 

[ExpressLane]

They do. My own family has used their services not for abortion but for well-woman check ups, contraception, and cancer screenings. The RW has demonized PP for many years, even before Roe v Wade.

Planned Parenthood has taken more lives than they have saved.

 

[zymurgy]

Men should now be legally required to start paying child support the minute there’s a positive pregnancy test.

If you consider a cluster of cells a child, then you are legally obligated to support it, right?

If I was a Democrat congressman/woman in DC, first thing Monday I would introduce legislation calling for MANDATORY DNA identification to determine the paternity of every child born in the USA going forward.

Lets see who in DC REALLY wants to support children.

soy boy with his soy boy ideas. this will not get you laid BTW.

financial abortions should be a right too. women are not forced to live with a mistake for 18 years - only 9 months, so this is a huge false equivalency