Biden calls 9mm ‘high-caliber weapons,’ suggests banning them

[ExpressLane]

I read over the studies when I was in JR ROTC, but that was a very long time ago. But lets take a step back, and look at it.

9mm has been around for 120 years, and has been adopted by almost every army on earth as their handgun ammo. Almost every American police force switched from revolvers to wonder nines. The 5.56 NATO itself has not been adopted by almost every army on earth, but similar calibers have. The Russians and Chinese both have main rifle ammo within a few percent of the 5.56 NATO.

These standards have been adopted by the world, because they work.

The US army is going away from the 5.56 they have adopted a new rifle the SIG Spear 6.8 x 51. They want something that can pierce body armor at long distances.

 

[RB 60]

It is a bit more complex than this, but a .38 Special is basically an underpowered 9mm. It is almost the same size bullet, with a less powerful amount of powder.

There are many, many calibers more powerful than a 9mm, so that you picked out one that is not shows that you know literally nothing about guns.

Actually, the .38 is .002 bigger than the 9mm.
Walt, I had a SIG 9mm (4" barrel) and have a S&W .38 (6" barrel). I reload all my ammunition (except the .22LR). With a light bullet, I can load the .38 to compete with the 9mm shooting a heavier bullet.

Of course there are many, many more calibers more powerful than a 9mm, that isn't the point. It was a comparison. Don't tell me I don't know anything about the guns I shoot.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Walt]

The US army is going away from the 5.56 they have adopted a new rifle the SIG Spear 6.8 x 51. They want something that can pierce body armor at long distances.

ExpressLane is right. They are going for a new balance, and the rest of the world might follow.

What they will not do is return to the old Springfield .30-06 or similar calibers. They want a slightly more powerful caliber, but not that much more powerful.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I read over the studies when I was in JR ROTC, but that was a very long time ago. But lets take a step back, and look at it.

9mm has been around for 120 years, and has been adopted by almost every army on earth as their handgun ammo. Almost every American police force switched from revolvers to wonder nines. The 5.56 NATO itself has not been adopted by almost every army on earth, but similar calibers have. The Russians and Chinese both have main rifle ammo within a few percent of the 5.56 NATO.

These standards have been adopted by the world, because they work.

There's a difference between war and self-defense. In war, the goal is to neutralize the enemy's ability to wage war. Shooting an enemy in the gut at 200 yards with a small caliber rifle like a 5.56mm is sufficient to take them out of the fight and encourage others to keep their heads down. A life or death situation of self-defense is often close enough to literally be touched by an aggressor. This is where "knockdown" power can be the difference between survival and becoming a victim.

 

[Walt]

It is almost the same size bullet

Actually, the .38 is .002 bigger than the 9mm.

I know you think you just made a point. You really did not.

Now ExpressLane did make a real point. I am not going to ignore that just because he holds different political views than me, but you have made no point here at all. "Almost the same size" means the same as ".002 bigger"

 

[Rune]

I guess everything was coined by one author. Then Wonder Nine was used for 40 years by just about everyone.

Now my turn, who uses a handgun while hunting? You ask why you never heard a handgun term in your hunting magazines, well, I wonder why you would go to a hunting magazine for handgun terms.

Most anyone hunting in bear country, moose country wild hog country or lion country carries a handgun.
Others like to hunt with handguns.
Please don't pretend you know anything at all about guns.
You don't.

 

[Rune]

I know you think you just made a point. You really did not.

Now ExpressLane did make a real point. I am not going to ignore that just because he holds different political views than me, but you have made no point here at all. "Almost the same size" means the same as ".002 bigger"

Seeing how a red human hair is about .006 thick, .002 is pretty tiny, small enough that it is only measurable with specific very expensive tools.

 

[RB 60]

I know you think you just made a point. You really did not.

Now ExpressLane did make a real point. I am not going to ignore that just because he holds different political views than me, but you have made no point here at all. "Almost the same size" means the same as ".002 bigger"

I cannot teach you comprehension..

You're free to agree with whomever you choose.
Ok, you had a different English teacher. I'm older than you.

 

[Walt]

There's a difference between war and self-defense. In war, the goal is to neutralize the enemy's ability to wage war. Shooting an enemy in the gut at 200 yards with a small caliber rifle like a 5.56mm is sufficient to take them out of the fight and encourage others to keep their heads down. A life or death situation of self-defense is often close enough to literally be touched by an aggressor. This is where "knockdown" power can be the difference between survival and becoming a victim.

If you shoot a machine gunner in the stomach, but do not kill him, he will kill your entire company as you approach the machine gun nest.

I almost think the 9mm is overpowered for self defense. The 9mm can easily kill out to 50 meters/yards (all this is inexact enough we can use them interchangeably), and is generally considered deadly out to 100 meters. If you kill someone who is 50 yards away, is it really self-defense? Maybe, but that will be a hard sell to a jury.

On top of that, you can end up missing the threat and killing someone a block or two away (about a 100 meters). Why should your self defense problem become someone so far away's problem?

There is a strong argument for .380 APC with its range of about half a 9mm.

 

[RB 60]

Seeing how a red human hair is about .006 thick, .002 is pretty tiny, small enough that it is only measurable with specific very expensive tools.

Average human hair is .003, pussy hair is about .0045 (Italian, dark hair). That would be a micrometer, or a good pair of vernier calipers to take measurements. Yes, good precision measuring tools are expensive.

 

[Walt]

Most anyone hunting in bear country, moose country wild hog country or lion country carries a handgun.

I can believe that, but I will not believe anyone actually hunts bears with a handgun. Think about it. If I wanted to kill a bear, I would do it from far enough away so that if I just wounded the bear, he would not think it was me who did it. I would also want to do it with enough accuracy to minimize the possibility of just wounding the bear.

If you walk up to 10 yards from a bear, shoot him with a handgun, and do not kill him, that bear is going to do some terrible things to you. If you shoot the bear from 100 yards away and just hurt it, that bear might do some terrible things to whatever creature has the misfortune of being within 10 yards of him.

 

[ExpressLane]

I said "can be 100 times faster". I will admit there is a world record holder that can fire a revolver so fast that an Uzi is only 4 times faster. That means that a world record breaker is four times slower than my Aunt Shirley who has never fired a gun in her life (if she were firing a Uzi).

Revolvers are mechanically simple, which is really good. That makes them very reliable. But with the Glock, semi-automatic handguns became almost as reliable, so they have quickly replaced revolvers. We can debate this back and forth, but the facts are that revolvers are an antique technology that no military would chose to field today.

So you admit you are wrong when you said a full auto Uzi can fire 100 times faster than a revolver. If they could do that they would have to fire 800 rounds a second not 30.

 

[Lionfish]

 

[Rune]

I said "can be 100 times faster". I will admit there is a world record holder that can fire a revolver so fast that an Uzi is only 4 times faster. That means that a world record breaker is four times slower than my Aunt Shirley who has never fired a gun in her life (if she were firing a Uzi).

Revolvers are mechanically simple, which is really good. That makes them very reliable. But with the Glock, semi-automatic handguns became almost as reliable, so they have quickly replaced revolvers. We can debate this back and forth, but the facts are that revolvers are an antique technology that no military would chose to field today.

So sorry but when Col. Browning invented the Colt .45 ACP
and then the even more refined Browning 9mm Hi-power
the game was over for revolvers.

The automatics were more accurate, more powerful and faster to reload.

Revolvers also have issues with cylinder timing when they get used enough.

Glocks had nothing to do with it.

 

[ExpressLane]

ExpressLane is right. They are going for a new balance, and the rest of the world might follow.

What they will not do is return to the old Springfield .30-06 or similar calibers. They want a slightly more powerful caliber, but not that much more powerful.

The bullet develops a much higher pressure over 80,000 psi. It has a 2 part shell casing that is no reloadable.

 

[Rune]

I can believe that, but I will not believe anyone actually hunts bears with a handgun. Think about it. If I wanted to kill a bear, I would do it from far enough away so that if I just wounded the bear, he would not think it was me who did it. I would also want to do it with enough accuracy to minimize the possibility of just wounding the bear.

If you walk up to 10 yards from a bear, shoot him with a handgun, and do not kill him, that bear is going to do some terrible things to you. If you shoot the bear from 100 yards away and just hurt it, that bear might do some terrible things to whatever creature has the misfortune of being within 10 yards of him.

I said some guys hunt with handguns.
I didn't say they hunt bear with hand guns though thrill seekers are known to do some stuff that others may consider stupid.

 

[LurchAddams]

I can believe that, but I will not believe anyone actually hunts bears with a handgun. Think about it. If I wanted to kill a bear, I would do it from far enough away so that if I just wounded the bear, he would not think it was me who did it. I would also want to do it with enough accuracy to minimize the possibility of just wounding the bear.

If you walk up to 10 yards from a bear, shoot him with a handgun, and do not kill him, that bear is going to do some terrible things to you. If you shoot the bear from 100 yards away and just hurt it, that bear might do some terrible things to whatever creature has the misfortune of being within 10 yards of him.

You just rewatched, "The Revenant" didn't you

 

[LurchAddams]

You know what else is "check and mate"? Your botched Durham investigation.

ZERO FOR THREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Rune]

Average human hair is .003, pussy hair is about .0045 (Italian, dark hair). That would be a micrometer, or a good pair of vernier calipers to take measurements. Yes, good precision measuring tools are expensive.

I stand corrected.