Lake Mead and Climate Change

[gfm7175]

Lies! You filthy liar!

No, he's telling the truth... They are not allowed to drill... Biden has cancelled the permits via executive order. You can find this information for yourself on www.whitehouse.gov

 

[Celticguy]

How?

remove all the water, truck the salt off to wasteland.

 

[Into the Night]

The Greenhouse Effect has been talked about since the mid-19th century

Ah. You are going to abuse poor ole' Tyndall and Fourier again.

-- first identified by Fourier. John Tyndall,
in the 1850s, conducted experiments to measure how much various gases absorb infra-red radiation, contributing to that effect.

NEITHER measured any such 'effect'. Tyndall measure absorption of infrared light by CO2. NOTHING shows you can trap light.

Since then, there's been a massive amount of research into the area, and the idea that certain gases absorb infrared radiation and thereby slow their exit from our planet is not at all controversial among scientists.

You cannot slow or trap light. Science is not scientists and has no voting bloc. It does not use consensus.

What makes you think it violates science, math, or logic?

RQAA. I have already answered these questions. I will do so again (briefly) here, since you apparently you still don't understand it.

1st law of thermodynamics:
E(t+1) = E(t) - U where 'E' is energy, 't' is time, and 'U' is work. There is no work being performed here, so E(t+1) = E(t). You cannot create energy out of nothing.

2nd law of thermodynamics:
e(t+1) >= e(t) where 'e' is entropy (the randomness of a system), and 't' is time. Entropy can NEVER decrease...ever. There is no sequence.

The Stefan-Boltzmann law:
r = C*e*t^4 where 'r' is light radiated in watts per square area, 'C' is a natural constant', 'e' is the emissivity of the radiating surface expressed as a measured constant as a percentage between ideal white and black bodies, 't' is temperature in deg K.

There is no 'material' factor in the Stefan-Boltzmann law. ALL materials radiate the same at the same temperature. There is frequency term. ALL frequencies of light are considered.

Statistical math REQUIRES selection of data (which MUST be published) by randN. The data MUST be raw unbiased data. It also REQUIRES that the margin of error value accompany the summary. This value is calculated from the variance, not the data.
It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth. There simply are nowhere near enough thermometers available, they are not uniformly spaced, and they are not read at the same time (introducing biasing factors).

You deny science. You deny mathematics. You deny logic as well, since you don't understand what a fallacy is.

Here you go:

https://earth.org/data_visualization/a-brief-history-of-co2/

More recently:

https://www.climate.gov/news-featur...ate/climate-change-atmospheric-carbon-dioxide

That's just CO2, but if you Google, you can find the others tracked, as well.

Argument from randU fallacy. It is not possible to measure the global atmospheric concentration of CO2. CO2 is not uniformly distributed in the atmosphere.

I know a lot about it. What, specifically, do you think I'm missing? The Stefan-Boltzmann law is pretty elementary stuff,

And you deny and discard it. RQAA.

and I don't know why you think it contradicts the mainstream scientific understanding

There is no such thing as 'mainstream science' nor 'scientific understanding'. Science does not use consensus. It has no voting bloc. It has no politics. It is not an 'understanding'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. You have just denied and discarded five of them.

of the role of greenhouse gases

No gas or vapor can create energy out of nothing. No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.

in climate change.

Buzzword fallacy. Meaningless term. Climate has no value associated with it.

It deals with radiant heat from surfaces -- basically just saying it's proportional to absolute temperature.

You are ignoring radiant heat from CO2 and other Magick Holy Gases.

What I find is that a lot of conservatives with no real scientific education will be handed these terms by right-wing blogs

Science has no politics. It is not an 'education'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. You have so far denied and discarded five of them.

(often run by non-scientists like Anthony Watts)

Science has no god.

and they'll assume they're things that would overturn climate science

Climate is not a science.

if only the climatologists understood them.

Climatologists deny science. They are just high priests in the Church of Global Warming.

But, of course, the kinds of concepts that trickle all the way down to the professionally ignorant Anthony Watts types are so elementary that they're understood by absolutely everyone actually doing work in the field.

You don't get to speak for everyone. You only get to speak for you. Omniscience fallacy.

For example, you'll see Stefan-Boltzmann is expressly used in mainstream climate science research papers, and by the IPCC's synthesis reports:

There is no such thing as 'mainstream science'. Science does not use consensus. Science is not a government agency. Science is not a paper, book, website, pamphlet, report, or URL. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. You have so far denied and discarded five of them.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/downloads/report/IPCC_AR6_WGI_Chapter_07.pdf
https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/32/2/jcli-d-17-0603.1.xml
https://www.jstor.org/stable/90013263
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/climatescience/atmosphericwarming/climatsensitivity.html
https://web.meteo.mcgill.ca/~mhenry/files/henry_linear_rad.pdf

NONE of these are using the Stefan-Boltzmann law.

Anyway, the implication of Stefan Boltzmann is what I said earlier: that we are altering the atmosphere in a way that will bring us to a new equilibrium point for temperature.

WRONG. The Stefan-Boltzmann law has no term for material type or content. It is not an equilibrium. There is no sequence. You cannot set aside any law of thermodynamics or the Stefan-Boltzmann law for even a moment.

At some point the Earth, understood as a huge black body,

WRONG. The Earth is a gray body as used in the Stefan-Boltzmann law. There is no black body in existence found in nature. A black body is an ideal reference point.

will be warm enough that it will be radiating at a rate great enough to reach a balance with incoming radiation, and the temperature will stabilize at that new point.

WRONG. You cannot set aside any law or theory of science for even a moment. There is no sequence.

Mainstream climate science understands that.

No such thing except as a religious artifact. Buzzword fallacy.

The issue is that the new point will be a lot warmer than anything civilization has every coped with,

And the usual Doom and Gloom prophecy.

which will cause humanity and ecosystems catastrophic problems:

And more of the usual Doom and Gloom prophecy.

https://cen.acs.org/articles/84/i51/Earths-atmosphere.html

In fact, an understanding of Stefan Boltzmann is key to spotting where the right-wing amateurs

Science has no politics. It is not an URL. It is not a scientist or any group of scientists. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.

go wrong when they argue the second law of thermodynamics makes it impossible for the (cooler) atmosphere to warm the (warmer) Earth.

You cannot decrease entropy for any reason at any time...ever.

The point is that the speed at which the warmth of the ground travels into the atmosphere is altered by the temperature differential between them,

Heat has no speed. You are also still ignoring the Stefan-Boltzmann law. The atmosphere radiates light too according to the same law. You cannot trap light. You cannot trap heat. You cannot trap thermal energy. There is always heat.

so with the sun continually contributing more energy to the ground,

You cannot trap light. You cannot trap thermal energy. There is always heat.

if you slow that transfer to the atmosphere,

You cannot trap heat. Heat has no speed. Heat has no temperature.

because the atmosphere gets warmer, you wind up with the ground being warmer, too.

Denial of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. You cannot reduce entropy...ever. There is no sequence.

Eventually you reach a new equilibrium point, but you may not like where it lies.

There is no sequence. You cannot set aside the 2nd law of thermodynamics at any time. You cannot set aside the Stefan-Boltzmann law at any time.

Science is not a web site. It is not a paper, research, study, book, web site, report, or pamphlet. It is not a scientist or any group of scientists. It is not even people at all. It is not any degree, license, credential, or any other such blessing from any organization. It is not a government agency or university. It is not an observation or data resulting from an observation. It is not a method or procedure.

Science is a set of falsifiable theories. That's it. That's all. Nothing more. It is just the theories themselves.

You cannot impose a sequence on any theory of science by setting aside any theory of science for even a moment.
You cannot add or subtract terms in a law in any way, such as what you are attempting to do. You cannot just set a theory of science aside for any reason for any length of time.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes, really. There has been a lot of research into this.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-022-01290-z

https://lamont.columbia.edu/news/climate-driven-megadrought-emerging-western-us-says-study

What made you think otherwise?

Research is not a proof. Apparently you forgot the record snowstorms that were in the news.

 

[Into the Night]

Isn't there a market for sea salt? Probably not millions of tons. But road salt for the winter, etc.

Not as much as you think.

Irregardless, it is impractical to desalinate in the quantities being discussed here.

 

[Into the Night]

not in the middle east but lots of mountains out west though I suspect its way more salt than anyone needs.
still, has to be a better idea on ditching the salt.

Where?

 

[Into the Night]

Sybil, since you can’t even comprehend something as simple as where California obtains water, how can I expect you to comprehend the data on NASA’s website?

Sybil isn't here. There is no data on NASA's website. Random numbers are not data.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-12-15/drought-colorado-river-water-agreement
California, Arizona and Nevada agree to take less water from ailing Colorado River
Trying to stave off dangerously low levels of water in Lake Mead, officials in California, Arizona and Nevada have reached an agreement to significantly reduce the amount they take from the Colorado River.
The problem took on new urgency this summer when the federal government declared a first-ever water shortage in the 86-year-old reservoir near Las Vegas.

The agreement, which was signed Wednesday after four months of negotiations, aims to keep an extra 1 million acre-feet of water in the lake over the next two years. Water agencies in Southern California, Arizona and Nevada agreed to find water savings from various sources and split the $200-million cost with the federal government.

https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...colorado-river-triggering-cuts-western-states

From 2016 which is why the 25M number is probably low. It’s not like this problem is new.
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11736340/lake-mead-water-drought-southwest
It's a good time to revisit the slow-motion water crunch in the American Southwest. Last week, Lake Mead — a key reservoir that helps supply water for 25 million people in Nevada, Arizona, and California — shrunk to its lowest level ever. And the question of how to grapple with water scarcity is making headlines yet again.

You seem to think that I am denying that Lake Mead has a low water level. Why would you think that? You are hallucinating again.

 

[Into the Night]

Not as good as a Florida Spring pulsing out clear and clean from under the ground.

Fun Florida fact: The intracoastal waterway was canceled because they hit the aquifer while digging it and fresh water started leaking into the Gulf and Atlantic.

I'm used to a lot better water than some sludge pond out west, k?

I'm thinking there's a big lake in Utah not too far from there. A lake that has huge fish in it. It's a freshwater lake, too.

It may depend on some snow or glacier melt, though.

That water was really good., even though it reminded me of the Withlacoochee.

Just the whole experience did.

I can't remember the name of it. It's not Strawberry, it's..like NW of there. Way bigger than Strawberry, too.

I'd know it if I heard it, but ain't nobody around to help me remember.

Old Glen's dead and my uncle can't remember that stuff.

Glen's last name was kinda Amish..what was it? Hmm.

I do enjoy the extremely clear water of Florida springs. It's amazing how clear it is...and beautiful.
Water in the desert (including from the Colorado river) tends to be hard water. It's not as muddy as the river itself though in Lake Mead. The lake itself acts as a settling pond. It IS hard water though. Takes a bit time to get used to the taste.

 

[Into the Night]

Is “paranoid schizophrenic” another meaningless buzzword in your world, Sybil?

Sybil isn't here. I can't talk to her for you.

 

[Into the Night]

Man made problems.....you seriously screw with the natural process of nature and you're going to pay the price somewhere down the line.

Lake Mead is not a natural process of nature.
Colorado river flow has not changed that much. Usage has increased continuously over the years until now even the slightest reduction in flow results in overtapping the available water.

 

[Althea]

not in the middle east but lots of mountains out west though I suspect its way more salt than anyone needs.
still, has to be a better idea on ditching the salt.

Yea. I thought Dillon was talking about one that failed in this nation? The north uses countless millions of tons of salt on the roads every winter out of necessity. Not sure where it comes from now. If they can find a cheap way heat the water, some day it might be worthwhile. Pretty soon they're going to have to do it whether it's cheap or not.

 

[Althea]

Man made problems.....you seriously screw with the natural process of nature and you're going to pay the price somewhere down the line.

Yea. We said that when we were young. I believe we ARE 'down the line' now.

 

[Althea]

No, he's telling the truth... They are not allowed to drill... Biden has cancelled the permits via executive order. You can find this information for yourself on www.whitehouse.gov

For some reason, I keep you around because your ignorance amuses me.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Half-Of-US-Oil-Pipelines-Sit-Empty.html

[h=1]Half Of U.S. Oil Pipelines Sit Empty[/h][FONT=&quot]By Charles Kennedy -[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Dec 16, 2021[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 9:00 AM CST[/FONT]

 

[Sailor]

It's climate change, as well. It's not that it has drained because they had to increase the rate of draining to accommodate downstream water use. It's that the rate of replenishment has fallen to the point that it's no longer capable of sustaining former rates of draw down. The era is in the midst of the most severe megadrought seen there in at least 1,200 years:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...-into-lake-mead-because-of-drought-180980030/

Climate change is almost certainly driving or at least exacerbating that:

https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/...am-drought-water-levels-lake-mead/5134031001/

"climate change" or whatever the buzzword is today that gets dumb people like yourself worked up over it is not the reason.

 

[Lightbringer]

Of course. That's the kind of science that gets covered in about fifth grade. Anthropogenic greenhouse gases have become a major driver of that process:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-17710-7

Here's more information if you'd like to learn about desertification:

https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-3/

You clearly didn't know. Stop being stupid. Reading is Fundamental, fuckwit.

 

[gfm7175]

For some reason, I keep you around because your ignorance amuses me.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Half-Of-US-Oil-Pipelines-Sit-Empty.html

[h=1]Half Of U.S. Oil Pipelines Sit Empty[/h][FONT=&quot]By Charles Kennedy -[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Dec 16, 2021[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 9:00 AM CST[/FONT]

Are you trying to refute my position?? It seems to me like you're actually supporting it...

 

[Code1211]

Lake Mead, the reservoir formed by the Hoover Dam, has been in the news lately, thanks to multiple bodies being found there, as dropping water levels reveal parts of the lake that have been underwater since it was originally filled after the dam was built. The sheer magnitude of the decline is amazing. We're used to seeing lakes dry up where the lake was fairly shallow at the best of times. But Lake Mead is now about 162 feet below the level it was at as recently as 2000. The West is drying out, and while we might get some intermittent relief, climatologists predict that on average it'll just get worse and worse, thanks to our failure to curb greenhouse gases.

Out of curiosity, are you asserting that no deserts ever formed before the use of Fossil Fuels?

 

[Matt Dillon]

Out of curiosity, are you asserting that no deserts ever formed before the use of Fossil Fuels?

The Sahara begs to differ.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Yea. I thought Dillon was talking about one that failed in this nation? The north uses countless millions of tons of salt on the roads every winter out of necessity. Not sure where it comes from now. If they can find a cheap way heat the water, some day it might be worthwhile. Pretty soon they're going to have to do it whether it's cheap or not.

Hey, I'm just telling what I know. Do I think they should have handled the salt differently? You damn right I do.

But that's how the desal project went, I wasn't in charge of it, and I think it was implemented poorly.

It was scuttled by CA enviro-people by the way.

 

[Celticguy]

Where?

how about NM ? Nothing there worth keeping.