Democrats and Rural Voters

The policy content of Clinton's speeches was much less impactful

That's an argument you can make, of course, as a question of opinion: which would do more to help working people: the raft of policy ideas Clinton proposed, each focused on helping working people, or Trump's protectionism -- an idea that economists generally expect to hurt working people, but where some believe they're wrong. But that wasn't the claim the NYT chose to trumpet. They trumpeted the idea that Clinton didn't speak of working people, when in fact she did, very extensively... much more so than Trump. That was a lie.

As for the factual "lies" I don't see where you identified them.

They quoted a woman who said Clinton didn't talk about working people at her convention. She did, very extensively. It was, in fact, the core theme of her convention, and of her own speech at the convention (whereas Trump's central theme was about restoring law and order in the face of what he characterized as a terrible breakdown of it).

That lie is a disservice to everyone, since it misidentifies the problem. To the extent Dems fall for the lie, they start thinking they can avoid that pitfall if they, unlike Clinton, just talk about working people. But she did exactly that. A failure to talk about them was not the problem.
 
That's an argument you can make, of course, as a question of opinion: which would do more to help working people: the raft of policy ideas Clinton proposed, each focused on helping working people, or Trump's protectionism -- an idea that economists generally expect to hurt working people, but where some believe they're wrong. But that wasn't the claim the NYT chose to trumpet. They trumpeted the idea that Clinton didn't speak of working people, when in fact she did, very extensively... much more so than Trump. That was a lie.



They quoted a woman who said Clinton didn't talk about working people at her convention. She did, very extensively. It was, in fact, the core theme of her convention, and of her own speech at the convention (whereas Trump's central theme was about restoring law and order in the face of what he characterized as a terrible breakdown of it).

That lie is a disservice to everyone, since it misidentifies the problem. To the extent Dems fall for the lie, they start thinking they can avoid that pitfall if they, unlike Clinton, just talk about working people. But she did exactly that. A failure to talk about them was not the problem.

she didn't do that.

she said losing coal jobs was good.
 
she didn't do that.

she said losing coal jobs was good.

Which particular comment are you thinking of? I'm wondering whether you're relying on another of those supposed "gaffes" where the media took something out of context to try to make her sound bad. Generally, those sound very different in context.

For example, back in March 2016 she had an interview in which she was trying to explain why she was a better choice for Democratic nominee than some of the other Democrats. She pointed out that environmental policies were going to wind up putting coal miners out of work and so she pointed out that what distinguished her from the other Dems is that her plan had a specific focus on bringing green energy jobs to coal country, to make sure those people displaced by the transition didn't get left behind economically.

"And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.
Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on."

Of course the mainstream media hated her (and had every since she was involved in the travel office firings of some of their corrupt cronies), so they took it out of context and made it sound like she was cheering job losses, rather than explaining how she'd make sure that as those coal jobs went away, newer and better jobs would be available for the same people.

That was kind of the story of her political career right there: she'd say something that spoke honestly and directly about a serious issue, mapping out a good idea to make sure working people were taken care of an nobody was left behind, then the Beltway press would hunt through her words to see if they could find a sentence that could be extracted and played out of context to make it sound like she was the high-handed bitch they so wanted her to be.
 
Which particular comment are you thinking of? I'm wondering whether you're relying on another of those supposed "gaffes" where the media took something out of context to try to make her sound bad. Generally, those sound very different in context.

For example, back in March 2016 she had an interview in which she was trying to explain why she was a better choice for Democratic nominee than some of the other Democrats. She pointed out that environmental policies were going to wind up putting coal miners out of work and so she pointed out that what distinguished her from the other Dems is that her plan had a specific focus on bringing green energy jobs to coal country, to make sure those people displaced by the transition didn't get left behind economically.

"And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.
Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on."

Of course the mainstream media hated her (and had every since she was involved in the travel office firings of some of their corrupt cronies), so they took it out of context and made it sound like she was cheering job losses, rather than explaining how she'd make sure that as those coal jobs went away, newer and better jobs would be available for the same people.

That was kind of the story of her political career right there: she'd say something that spoke honestly and directly about a serious issue, mapping out a good idea to make sure working people were taken care of an nobody was left behind, then the Beltway press would hunt through her words to see if they could find a sentence that could be extracted and played out of context to make it sound like she was the high-handed bitch they so wanted her to be.

COMPREHENSIVE CLINTON BODY COUNT LIST
10/03/2013
Hillary
PHOTO CREDIT YOUTUBE SCREEN GRAB
(Thomas Dishaw) The Clinton’s reign of terror lasted 8 years in America, but the impact of his decisions will last a lifetime in this country.

Economic policy, the implication of NAFTA & GATT, and a public affair that shook the nation are just some of the events people associate him with. As most of you know “The Clinton Chronicles” has been floating around the web for a few decades. This grainy, over-dubbed documentary debuted in 1994 on a limited VHS run and ended up selling approximately 300,000 copies making it a cult classic in the conspiracy world.

Accusations of drug running, money laundering, murder and womanizing were brought to the forefront in this gutsy, tell all documentary. Going hand in hand with the documentary is the ‘Clinton kill list’ another urban legend that according to the almighty Snopes is false. Snopes, the most reliable place on the web (sarcasm) believes “Clinton hasn’t been quietly doing away with people who oppose him ” making the Clinton Body Count FALSE and me just another conspiracy theorist.


Below is a comprehensive list of mysterious deaths connected to the Clinton’s that have grave implications.

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1 – James McDougal – Clinton’s convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.

2 – Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

3 – Vince Foster – Former white House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.

4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors.

5 – C. Victor Raiser II and Montgomery Raiser, Major players in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.

6 – Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992… Described by Clinton as a “Dear friend and trusted advisor.”

7- Ed Willey – Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

8 – Jerry Parks – Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

9 – James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a “Black Book” of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

10 – James Wilson – Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

11- Kathy Ferguson, ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

12 – Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.

13 – Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

14 – Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal Mena Airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.

15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

16 – Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

17 – Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.

18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 “October Surprise” was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno three weeks before his death

19 – Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guarantee scandal.

20 – Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.

21- Charles Meissner – Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.

22 – Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee, died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.

23 – Barry Seal – Drug running pilot out of Mena, Arkansas, death was no accident.

24 – Johnny Lawhorn Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.

25 – Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guarantee. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.

26- Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

27 – Kevin Ives and Don Henry – Known as “The boys on the track” case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the two boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.

THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

28 – Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, July 1988.

29 – Keith McMaskle – Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

30 – Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

31 – Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

33 – James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to “natural causes.”

34 – Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

35 – Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.

THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD: 36 – Major William S. Barkley Jr. 37 – Captain Scott J. Reynolds 38 – Sgt. Brian Hanley 39 – Sgt. Tim Sabel 40 – Major General William Robertson 41 – Col. William Densberger 42 – Col. Robert Kelly 43 – Spec. Gary Rhodes 44 – Steve Willis 45 – Robert Williams 46 – Conway LeBleu 47 – Todd McKeehan

48 -World-renowned “space economist” Molly Macauly was brutally murdered in Baltimore park.

49-John Ashe- The former President of the UN General Assembly was awaiting trial on bribery charges when he turned up dead in June, apparently having crushed his own windpipe while lifting weights in his home…

50-Victor Thorn-Prominent CLINTON Critic VICTOR THORN Found Dead Of Apparent Suicide On His Birthday

51-Seth Rich-Still No Clues in Murder of DNC’s Seth Rich, As Conspiracy Theories Thicken

52- Joe Montano-Filipino American activist and aide to Sen. Kaine, dies at 47

53-Shawn Lucas-Death of DNC Lawsuit Processor Shawn Lucas Adds to Seth Rich Conspiracy Theories

54-Seth Rich-Family’s private investigator: There is evidence Seth Rich had contact with WikiLeaks prior to death

55-Klaus Eberwein Found Dead Before Testifying Against Clinton Foundation in HAITI COVERUP

56-Man who sought Clinton’s emails from Russian hackers committed suicide

57-Steve Mostyn-MAJOR Player In Hillary’s INNER CIRCLE ‘Suddenly’ ‘COMMITS SUICIDE…

https://www.governmentslaves.news/comprehensive-clinton-body-count-list/
 
COMPREHENSIVE CLINTON BODY COUNT LIST

The best reality check I ever heard on the "Clinton Body Count" meme is this. Ask yourself HONESTLY who would have been most convenient to have die at the right time for the Clintons. In other words, picture a list of the people the Clintons would have secretly smiled to hear had dropped dead at the right moment. Who'd have been at the top of such a list?

If you're honest, you'll see that it's not going to be folks you never would have heard of if they hadn't popped up on a list like the one you provided. It's not going to be obscure staffers two or three degrees of separation from the Clintons, where we have to engage in unsubstantiated (and unhinged) speculation that they might have had some dirt on the Clintons. It'll be big names we knew were a big problem for the Clintons, whether because they were the leading political rivals of the Clintons, or people who were making serious accusations against them, or the leaders of the media lynch mobs.

Some ideas: Kenneth Starr, Monica Lewinsky, Linda Tripp, Gennifer Flowers, Lucianne Goldberg, Paula Jones, Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole, Trent Lott, Dennis Hastert, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, William Rehnquist, Richard Mellon Scaife, Larry Klayman, Bernie Sanders, Sean Hannity, Barrack Obama, Rudy Giuliani, Rick Lazio, Henry Hyde, Bob Barr, Paul Tsongas, Jerry Brown, Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson, Ralph Nader, Trey Gowdy, Wayne LaPierre, George H. W. Bush, Susan Webber Wright, Rush Limbaugh, and Juanita Broaddrick.

Now, as yourself: how many of those died conveniently-timed deaths?

It's telling that rather than looking at such people who'd been serious problems for the Clintons, the death list goes with people like James McDougal, who didn't die until long after it was clear the Clintons hadn't done anything wrong with regard to the Whitewater deal (and after he'd already been convicted of his crimes, such that we can't speculate he was cutting some sort of deal). By the time McDougal kicked the bucket, the investigation into Whitewater had gone on for years, McDougal had been thoroughly questioned, and even the crazed Republican investigator, Kenneth Starr, had given up on digging that dry hole and had moved his witch-hunt onward to investigating the president's sex life.

I think that's why the "Clinton Death List" meme functions as a kind of IQ test on the right, drawing the line between the merely aggressively partisan and the outright idiotic. Anyone who imagines the Clintons are some of the most prolific serial killers in history, and yet that they took a hands-off approach to absolutely everyone who actually crossed them, has serious mental deficiencies.
 
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The best reality check I ever heard on the "Clinton Body Count" meme is this. Ask yourself HONESTLY who would have been most convenient to have die at the right time for the Clintons. In other words, picture a list of the people the Clintons would have secretly smiled to hear had dropped dead at the right moment. Who'd have been at the top of such a list?

If you're honest, you'll see that it's not going to be folks you never would have heard of if they hadn't popped up on a list like the one you provided. It's not going to be obscure staffers two or three degrees of separation from the Clintons, where we have to engage in unsubstantiated (and unhinged) speculation that they might have had some dirt on the Clintons. It'll be big names we knew were a big problem for the Clintons, whether because they were the leading political rivals of the Clintons, or people who were making serious accusations against them, or the leaders of the media lynch mobs.

Some ideas: Kenneth Starr, Monica Lewinsky, Linda Tripp, Gennifer Flowers, Lucianne Goldberg, Paula Jones, Newt Gingrich, Bob Dole, Trent Lott, Dennis Hastert, Bill O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, William Rehnquist, Richard Mellon Scaife, Larry Klayman, Bernie Sanders, Sean Hannity, Barrack Obama, Rudy Giuliani, Rick Lazio, Henry Hyde, Bob Barr, Paul Tsongas, Jerry Brown, Donald Trump, Tucker Carlson, Ralph Nader, Trey Gowdy, Wayne LaPierre, George H. W. Bush, Susan Webber Wright, Rush Limbaugh, and Juanita Broaddrick.

Now, as yourself: how many of those died conveniently-timed deaths?

It's telling that rather than looking at such people who'd been serious problems for the Clintons, the death list goes with people like James McDougal, who didn't die until long after it was clear the Clintons hadn't done anything wrong with regard to the Whitewater deal (and after he'd already been convicted of his crimes, such that we can't speculate he was cutting some sort of deal). By the time McDougal kicked the bucket, the investigation into Whitewater had gone on for years, McDougal had been thoroughly questioned, and even the crazed Republican investigator, Kenneth Starr, had given up on digging that dry hole and had moved his witch-hunt onward to investigating the president's sex life.

I think that's why the "Clinton Death List" meme functions as a kind of IQ test on the right, drawing the line between the merely aggressively partisan and the outright idiotic. Anyone who imagines the Clintons are some of the most prolific serial killers in history, and yet that they took a hands-off approach to absolutely everyone who actually crossed them, has serious mental deficiencies.

:okjen:
 
That's an argument you can make, of course, as a question of opinion: which would do more to help working people: the raft of policy ideas Clinton proposed, each focused on helping working people, or Trump's protectionism -- an idea that economists generally expect to hurt working people, but where some believe they're wrong. But that wasn't the claim the NYT chose to trumpet. They trumpeted the idea that Clinton didn't speak of working people, when in fact she did, very extensively... much more so than Trump. That was a lie.



They quoted a woman who said Clinton didn't talk about working people at her convention. She did, very extensively. It was, in fact, the core theme of her convention, and of her own speech at the convention (whereas Trump's central theme was about restoring law and order in the face of what he characterized as a terrible breakdown of it).

That lie is a disservice to everyone, since it misidentifies the problem. To the extent Dems fall for the lie, they start thinking they can avoid that pitfall if they, unlike Clinton, just talk about working people. But she did exactly that. A failure to talk about them was not the problem.

You're looking at this as if the column was intended by the Times to give readers an alternative viewpoint they might accept in modification of their own. This it was not. The Times readership, particularly and probably all readers who would have taken the time to read the column, are in a different political universe from the column's authors. The column's purpose rather is to give those Times readers a window into the minds of voters who are unlike them, as a way of broadening an understanding of the dynamics of the 2020 campaign, even of the country. It would have been unnecessary and out of place to fact check it.
 
See, I just don't get that. To me, Hillary Clinton has a pretty solid middle-class vibe. She comes from the Midwest and spent a good chunk of her adult life in the South. Her early adult life was spent in a little one-bedroom home in Fayetteville. Her career involved actually working for other people, like most of us do. It's a far cry from Trump, who was the child of one of the richest men in America and sent his whole life in a gold-plated jet-setter lifestyle in NYC, as boss of a giant corporation his daddy gave him. So, it's ironic that anyone would point to a "jet set personality" for Clinton, in that context.

Why does Clinton get hurt by having become wealthy late in life, while Trump's silver-spoon existence and billionaire Manhattan lifestyle doesn't rub the same people the wrong way? I think it comes down to hate. Donald Trump hates the same people that the undereducated white working class hates. He hates uppity women, Black people, immigrants, and religious minorities. That hate binds them together. It's the reason that rural Mainer was drawn to him, and why she wound up reaching for an out-and-out lie to explain her vote (because telling the truth, even to herself, would have been uncomfortable). You can't say you picked Trump because he hates the same folks you do, so instead you say it's because Hillary Clinton didn't talk about working people at the convention -- even though she not only demonstrably did, but demonstrably did so far more than Trump did.

To use the old cliche, Trump is the kind of person they'd like to have beer with.... because they can sit around getting drunk and telling bigoted jokes while ranting about "those people." Clinton, by comparison, may share a very similar background to them, but she outgrew that bigoted mindset, and who wants to get a beer with someone who may make you feel bad about being an asshole when you try to tell a nasty joke? I think that's why they call her Shrillary -- the idea that she's the kind of person who'd have the morals to speak out against bigotry, rather than joining in with the "locker room talk."



The question is why the paper chose to trumpet that particular view, even when the column contained what they knew to be outright lies, without so much as providing a reality check? I have no problem with them providing a diversity of viewpoints, but when someone is going to make a flat-out incorrect statement about a verifiable matter, the paper has a responsibility to set the record straight. If, for example, I wrote a column saying the Obama years had the highest GDP growth rate in American history, the paper either should require me to remove that flat-out wrong statement before they'll publish, or they should provide, alongside it, an editorial clarification that my statement isn't actually true. If they provide me a soap box for saying wrong things, without correction, then they are shirking their responsibility and they may as well just be Twitter or Facebook.

Check who Miss Hillary clerked for in her early law career. That was a choice, not a necessity. Then there's this:

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/good-riddance-warmonger-hillary-clinton/

She essentially carpet bagged her way to Senate rep NY, and gave a dubious "liberal" voting record: https://rollcall.com/2016/04/28/what-8-years-of-senate-votes-reveal-about-clinton/

Bottom line: I don't trust her.
 
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