Why are we still debating the climate?

Science proved the theory in real time
Science has no proofs. It is not possible to prove any theory True.

There is no such thing as 'global warming'. You cannot create energy out of nothing. See the 1st law of thermodynamics.

Russia likes the lies about GW
Why would it?
THEIR ONLY SELLABLE PRODUCT IS OIL
Nope. They also sell natural gas, vacuum tubes, software, gold, platinum, diamonds, etc.
they are mostly a frozen waste land
That 'frozen wasteland' as you call it is rich in resources.
Global warming sounds great to them
Sorry dude. No gas or vapor is capable of warming the Earth. It is not possible to even measure the temperature of the Earth. Buzzword fallacy.
 
BECAUSE IT'S BEEN WARMING FOR OVER 20,000 YEARS, AND AT A FAR MORE RAPID PACE THAN NOW, 10,000-20,000 THOUSAND YEARS AGO..., FORMING GLACIERS AND THE GREAT LAKES...ETC., WITH NO HELP FROM HUMANS, DIPSHIT.

How do you know? It is not possible to measure the temperature of the Earth.
 
And we've also seen that w/ wind turbines, and I'm sure many other examples beyond that.

It's one of those things where we would need a crystal ball to show people exactly how their lives will be affected if we don't act. But even then - even if people could see it visually - they'd probably still procrastinate and delay.

Don't act on what?
 
AGW is a distraction to me. It's the shiny object in the climate "debate." It allows detractors to focus on something unproveable, and ignore the larger crisis that is near a tipping point.

We are losing whole ecosystems at this point. We're in the middle of a mass extinction (and unlike AGW, that one is on us, without a doubt). We're losing habitat, drinkable water & breathable air at alarming rates.

None of this is even remotely sustainable, even for another decade. People used to talk about preserving the planet for our children & our children's children - but this is about us just as much as anyone.

We can't possibly be this shortsighted and careless. This is a crisis, and it's the most important and impactful crisis we have. Without a habitable planet, all of the other issues are meaningless.

This shouldn't be political. This should be the top priority for both parties, and for every world leader.

Why are you still driving a car? Drinking ANYTHING out of plastic bottles, heating or cooling your home with fossil fuels? ACTION not words.
 
This poser
Posing as what?
thinks definitions are the only important thing
They are when such buzzwords are the topic of a sentence.
when it actually happens that they're the least important thing.
A sentence using buzzwords as the topic is a void argument fallacy.
Outright delusions and general psychosis as a matter of it. Indoctrinated agnosia.
Psychoquackery. Sour grapes. Trolling. No argument presented.
 
You can wait as long as you want.

This isn't a thread about warming. Again, I'd recommend that you re-read what I posted. You're providing an example of what I'm referring to.

Considering that 'climate change' (whatever that is!) is used as a synonym for 'global warming' (whatever that is), and you now state that this isn't what the thread is about, then why did you bring up 'climate change' at all??!?
 
And we've also seen that w/ wind turbines, and I'm sure many other examples beyond that.

It's one of those things where we would need a crystal ball to show people exactly how their lives will be affected if we don't act. But even then - even if people could see it visually - they'd probably still procrastinate and delay.

oil producers and refiners don't give two shits about climate change. 'the people' are completely strung out on gasoline and other oil products, worse than any junkie, they're in no position to do a thing about it. they all can't drive a Prius and shop organic, day to day for most is a struggle already. until it's 130 degrees in MN in Jan nothing serious will be attempted, literally no hope here
 
oil producers and refiners don't give two shits about climate change. 'the people' are completely strung out on gasoline and other oil products, worse than any junkie, they're in no position to do a thing about it. they all can't drive a Prius and shop organic, day to day for most is a struggle already. until it's 130 degrees in MN in Jan nothing serious will be attempted, literally no hope here



Correction, nothing is worse than a junky.
 
oil producers and refiners don't give two shits about climate change. 'the people' are completely strung out on gasoline and other oil products, worse than any junkie, they're in no position to do a thing about it. they all can't drive a Prius and shop organic, day to day for most is a struggle already. until it's 130 degrees in MN in Jan nothing serious will be attempted, literally no hope here

Fuckwit on steroids.
 
.

The Imaginary Climate Crisis – How can we Change the Message?


Richard S. Lindzen, Professor Emeritus of Atmospheric Sciences, MIT

For about 33 years, many of us have been battling against climate hysteria. We have correctly noted

•The exaggerated sensitivity,
•The role of other processes and natural internal variability,
•The inconsistency with the paleoclimate record,
•The absence of evidence for increased extremes, hurricanes, etc. and so on.

We have also pointed out the very real benefits of CO2 and even of modest warming. And, as concerns government policies, we have been pretty ineffective. Indeed our efforts have done little other than to show (incorrectly) that we take the threat scenario seriously. In this talk, I want to make a tentative analysis of our failure.

In punching away at the clear shortcomings of the narrative of climate alarm, we have, perhaps, missed the most serious shortcoming: namely, that the whole narrative is pretty absurd. Of course, many people (though by no means all) have great difficulty entertaining this possibility. They can’t believe that something so absurd could gain such universal acceptance. Consider the following situation. Your physician declares that your complete physical will consist in simply taking your temperature. This would immediately suggest something wrong with your physician. He further claims that if your temperature is 37.3C rather than between 36.1C and 37.2C you must be put on life support. Now you know he is certifiably insane. The same situation for climate (a comparably complex system with a much more poorly defined index, globally averaged temperature anomaly) is considered ‘settled science.’

In case you are wondering why this index is remarkably poor. I suspect that many people believe that there is an instrument that measures the Earth’s temperature. As most of you know, that is not how the record was obtained.

Obviously, the concept of an average surface temperature is meaningless. One can’t very well average the Dead Sea with Mt. Everest. Instead, one takes 30 year annual or seasonal means at each station and averages the deviations from these averages. The results are referred to as annual or seasonal mean anomalies. In the following figures, we see the station data in black and the mean anomalies in orange. The spread of anomalies is much larger than the rather small range of change seen in the average. While the average does show a trend, most of the time there are almost as many stations cooling as there are stations warming. The figure you are familiar with omits the data points, expands the scale by about an order of magnitude (and usually smooths the curve as well). The total change in the mean is much smaller than what we experience over a day, a week or over any longer period. This is illustrated in the fourth figure. The residue we refer to as the index is pretty negligible. It may not even be a good measure of climate at all. Instead of emphasizing this, we look for problems at individual stations. This, I would suggest, is somewhat myopic.

The fluctuations show why changes of +/- 0.2 are meaningless.

The thickness of the black line represents the total change in global mean anomaly over the past 120 years. Although this change was accompanied by the greatest increase in human welfare in history, we told that its increase by about 30% will represent doom.

If this weren’t silly enough, we are bombarded with claims that the impacts of this climate change include such things as obesity and the Syrian civil war. The claims of impacts are then circularly claimed to be overwhelming evidence of dangerous climate change. It doesn’t matter that most of these claims are wrong and/or irrelevant. It doesn’t matter that none of these claims can be related to CO2 except via model projections. In almost all cases, even the model projections are non-existent. Somehow, the sheer volume of misinformation seems to overwhelm us. In case, you retain any skepticism, there is John Kerry’s claim that climate (unlike physics and chemistry) is simple enough for any child to understand. Presumably, if you can’t see the existential danger of CO2, you’re a stupid denier.

And, in case this situation isn’t sufficiently bizarre, there is the governmental response. It is entirely analogous to a situation that a colleague, Bruce Everett, described. After your physical, your physician tells you that you may have a fatal disease. He’s not really sure, but he proposes a treatment that will be expensive and painful while offering no prospect of preventing the disease. When you ask why you would ever agree to such a thing, he says he just feels obligated to “do something”. That is precisely what the Paris Accord amounts to. However, the ‘something’ also gives governments the power to control the energy sector and this is something many governments cannot resist. Information is unlikely to change this despite the fact that even the UN’s IPCC acknowledges that their warming claims would only reduce the immensely expanded GDP by about 2-3% by the end of the century – something that is trivially manageable and hardly ‘existential.’

In trying to understand the success of this claim that climate change due to CO2 is an existential threat, I propose to look at an analogous scare: the widespread fear in the US in the early 20th Century of an epidemic of feeblemindedness. I will also return to C.P. Snow’s two-culture description in order to see why the alarmist scenario appeals primarily to the so-called educated elite rather than to the common people.

Over twenty five years ago, I wrote a paper comparing the panic in the US in the early 1920’s over an alleged epidemic of feeblemindedness with the current fear of cataclysmic climate change. ((1996) Science and politics: global warming and eugenics. in Risks, Costs, and Lives Saved, R. Hahn, editor, Oxford University Press, New York, 267pp (Chapter 5, 85-103))

During this early period, the counterpart of Environmentalism was Eugenics. Instead of climate physics as the underlying science, we had genetics. And instead of overturning the energy economy, we had immigration restriction. Both advocacy movements were characteristically concerned with purity: environmentalism with the purity of the environment, eugenics with the purity of the gene pool. Interestingly, Eugenics did not start with a focus on genes. It was started around 1880 by biometricians who used statistical analysis to study human evolution. Among them were some of the founders of modern statistics like Pearson and Fisher. Given the mathematically sophisticated origin of the movement, it should come as no surprise that it didn’t really catch on. It only became popular and fashionable when Mendelian genetics was rediscovered around 1900, and things like feeble mindedness were suggested to be associated with a single recessive gene. It is pretty clear that such movements need an easily understood, allegedly scientific but actually pretty absurd narrative. The people needing such narratives are not the ordinary citizen, but rather our educated elites. Prominent supporters of eugenics included Theodore Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, the racist founder of Planned Parenthood, the Bishop of Ripon, George Bernard Shaw, Havelock Ellis, and many others. The supporters also included technically adept individuals who were not expert in genetics. Alexander Graham Bell for example. They also need a policy goal. In the early 1920’s, Americans became concerned with immigration, and it was argued that America was threatened with an epidemic of feeblemindedness due allegedly to immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe.

Details of this situation are in my paper which you can request by email. The major takeaway points are the following:

Elites are always searching for ways to advertise their virtue and assert the authority they believe they are entitled to.

They view science as a source of authority rather than a process, and they try to appropriate science, suitably and incorrectly simplified, as the basis for their movement.

Movements need goals, and these goals are generally embedded in legislation.

The effect of legislation long outlasts the alleged science. The Immigration Reduction Act of 1924 remained until 1964.

As long as scientists are rewarded for doing so, they are unlikely to oppose the exploitation of science.
In the case of eugenics, government funding was not at issue, but private funding did play a role, and for many scientists, there was the public recognition of their relevance.

For example, Jennings, a professor of genetics at Johns Hopkins University, in his 1930 book, The Biological Basis of Human Nature states: “Gone are the days when the biologist … used to be pictured in the public prints as an absurd creature, his pockets bulging with snakes and newts. … The world … is to be operated on scientific principles. The conduct of life and society are to be based, as they should be, on sound biological maxims! … Biology has become popular!” Privately, Jennings opposed the political exploitation of genetics.

C.P. Snow’s discussion in 1959 of the two cultures suggests why it is the educated elite that is most vulnerable to the absurd narrative. Snow was an English physicist, novelist, government advisor.

Here is his description of the non-scientific educated elite.

“A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists.

Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s?

I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their Neolithic ancestors would have had.”

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ple-temperature-records&p=4867772#post4867772
 
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Why are you still driving a car? Drinking ANYTHING out of plastic bottles, heating or cooling your home with fossil fuels? ACTION not words.

This is what the right does. They go for "gotchas" instead of solutions.

Do you acknowledge the problem? Do you think going for a quick drive-by "gotcha" solves the problem?

To answer, I conserve as much as I can. But it's as token as it could be, just as it would w/ any individual. Systemic change is what is needed.

You're concerned about immigration. Are you working the border?
 
This is what the right does. They go for "gotchas" instead of solutions.

Do you acknowledge the problem? Do you think going for a quick drive-by "gotcha" solves the problem?

To answer, I conserve as much as I can. But it's as token as it could be, just as it would w/ any individual. Systemic change is what is needed.

You're concerned about immigration. Are you working the border?

One of my vehicles is a Honda Hybrid. What about you? Hey...I thought I was the conservative around here! ;)
 
Honest admission......I didnt buy the hybrid to save the planet,....I bought it because Im a cheap fuck when it comes to certain things. BTW....Get this....Our one term libtard governor decided it was a great idea to make anyone with a hybrid pay much more for tags because they use way less gas so they lose in gas taxes. Shouldnt he be promoting hybrids instead of penalizing them? Once again...ALL ABOUT THE MONEY
 
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