recycling

What is the carbon footprint required to recycle a republican into a libertarian?
And do Libertarians have a larger carbon footprint than Republicans?
 
Southern Man said:
The energy used to recycle most paper and plastic food containers is enormous. A better strategy is to burn them in an energy recovery facility.
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That's debatable. Waste To Energy (WTE) is just as cost driven as recycling. There are cases where certain types of plastic and papers are amenable to recycling and are cost affective to recycle (HDPE and PTE come to mind). There are other papers and plastics that don't provide adequate BTU's when burned and are of questionable value, if any, for WTE purposes.
 
uscitizen said:
What is the carbon footprint required to recycle a republican into a libertarian?
And do Libertarians have a larger carbon footprint than Republicans?
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Well, if you took all that have gone through the process it would still not cover the carbon output of your keyboard.
 
Mottleydude said:
That's debatable. Waste To Energy (WTE) is just as cost driven as recycling. There are cases where certain types of plastic and papers are amenable to recycling and are cost affective to recycle (HDPE and PTE come to mind). There are other papers and plastics that don't provide adequate BTU's when burned and are of questionable value, if any, for WTE purposes.
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Add in the costs of washing, collecting, transferring and transporting the stuff long distance and recycling that stuff is rarely worth it. Just burn it along with the trash. *shrug*
 
The electric industry was wanting to put in a trash burning power plant within 40 air miles of me.
Their plan was to transport pellitized trash from New Jersey to KY and burn it and produce cheap power?
We got that plan killed.

Let them try it in Jersey first.
 
Mottleydude said:
That's debatable. Waste To Energy (WTE) is just as cost driven as recycling. There are cases where certain types of plastic and papers are amenable to recycling and are cost affective to recycle (HDPE and PTE come to mind). There are other papers and plastics that don't provide adequate BTU's when burned and are of questionable value, if any, for WTE purposes.
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There is also the hazard of the chemicals released by burning. Often the filter process is questionable. And some of the hazards would be in a gas form. Much tougher to contain.
 
I like the deposit idea on plastic drink bottles and think it should be nationwide.
If you don't want it someone will pick it up and redeem it for money.
 
uscitizen said:
I like the deposit idea on plastic drink bottles and think it should be nationwide.
If you don't want it someone will pick it up and redeem it for money.
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I don't think the deposit method is very effective. The cost of throwing the bottle away is paid at the time of purchase and is divorced from the act of throwing it away.

If people had to pay five cents (should be more) to throw a bottle away at the time they toss it out or recycle it for free you'd see a whole lot more recycling.
 
Dungheap said:
I don't think the deposit method is very effective. The cost of throwing the bottle away is paid at the time of purchase and is divorced from the act of throwing it away.

If people had to pay five cents (should be more) to throw a bottle away at the time they toss it out or recycle it for free you'd see a whole lot more recycling.
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And this would be enforced how? What is to stop me from just walking by a dumpster and tossing it in? What if I clean out my car at the gas station, is there a garbage police man there to enforce this?
 
Damocles said:
Watch all the parts, it will help.

Your complaint is in this segment of the show they talked about a small portion of it correctly but they didn't go far enough into for you. They go deeper, you should watch the whole of the show.
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I'll try to do that but to be honest with you, if Penn and Teller think that recylcing is bull shit, then they are grossly wrong. Recycling of certain materials is very profitable. Most steel manufactured in this nation is recycled steel produced at minimills from scrap steel. Most consumer aluminum is recycled post consumer scrap. Cullet (scrap glass) is essential for managing cost at most glass manufacturers. Most chemical manufacturers and many waste management firms maintain solvent recovery columns in order to recycle solvents such as petroleum distillates, aromatics, aliphatics and halogenated solvents.

But let's use steel as an example. Minimills that recycle scrap steel use about 75% of the energy required to make steel from ore. Air emmisions are about 16% of those of an integrated steel mill. Recycling steel requires 40% less water and generates only 24% of the waste water that integrated mills generate using ore. Minimills recycling steel produce 1.29 less tons of solid waste per ton of steel manufactured than when steel is made from ore. For every 1 ton of steel recycled about 1.5 tons of iron ore and 0.5 tons of coal are conserved. Currently around 70% of the overall steel production in the USA is from recycled steel. That's right around 75 million metric tons per year of recycled steel products manufactured in the USA alone.

Doesn't sound like recycling is bullshit to me.
 
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Damocles said:
And this would be enforced how? What is to stop me from just walking by a dumpster and tossing it in? What if I clean out my car at the gas station, is there a garbage police man there to enforce this?
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Ohh you can throw your nickels in the dumpster if you want, but if someone sees you they may go dumpster diving for them.
No aluminum cans on the roadsides here. And they are worth less than .05 each.

but you are right since it is not perfect we should not do it ;)
 
Damocles said:
And this would be enforced how? What is to stop me from just walking by a dumpster and tossing it in? What if I clean out my car at the gas station, is there a garbage police man there to enforce this?
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They don't have a deposit law in your state do they? Enforcement is not an issue and yes, there's nothing to prevent you from throwing your nickel away. However, chances are some dumpster diver will pick up your nickel. My point being, deposit laws are very affective incentives to recycle and have a significant impact on decreasing the generation of solid waste.
 
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Mottleydude said:
I'll try to do that but to be honest with you, if Penn and Teller think that recylcing is bull shit, then they are grossly wrong. Recycling of certain materials is very profitable. Most steel manufactured in this nation is recycled steel produced at minimills from scrap steel. Most consumer aluminum is recycled post consumer scrap. Cullet (scrap glass) is essential for managing cost at most glass manufacturers. Most chemical manufacturers and many waste management firms maintain solvent recovery columns in order to recycle solvents such as petroleum distillates, aromatics, aliphatics and halogenated solvents.

But let's use steel as an example. Minimills that recycle scrap steel use about 75% of the energy required to make steel from ore. Air emmisions are about 16% of those of an integrated steel mill. Recycling steel requires 40% less water and generates only 24% of the waste water that integrated mills generate using ore. Minimills recycling steel produce 1.29 less tons of solid waste per ton of steel manufactured than when steel is made from ore. For every 1 ton of steel recycled about 1.5 tons of iron ore and 0.5 tons of coal are conserved. Curretnly around 70% of the overall steel production in the USA is from recycled steel. That's right around 75 million metric tons per year or recycled steel products manufactured in the USA alone.

Doesn't sound like recycling is bullshit to me.
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Just watch the show. They don't always say things are Bullshit on the show, it is just named that. They point out the portions that are bullshit and will tell you the truth if they find that it isn't as well.

Another good one to watch is the global warming show.

I wouldn't say that they take an hour and get into uber details, etc., they couldn't, there isn't enough time. But they hit many of the important aspects.

As for steel, every landfill I've ever visited separates out magnetic material for recycling with a rather large magnet. They also separated out efficient recyclables using a less-efficient means of actual people. They did not take out the plastic bags...
 
Damocles said:
And this would be enforced how? What is to stop me from just walking by a dumpster and tossing it in? What if I clean out my car at the gas station, is there a garbage police man there to enforce this?
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There are plenty of ways to "enforce" it. The easiest way is to make it cost a lot for the disposal of waste at the end of the system (i.e. the dump, landfill, etc. . . ) and then let the costs trickle through the system. If a gas station wants to provide trash disposal to its customers it can pay for it and make up the difference in its pricing.
 
Dungheap said:
There are plenty of ways to "enforce" it. The easiest way is to make it cost a lot for the disposal of waste at the end of the system (i.e. the dump, landfill, etc. . . ) and then let the costs trickle through the system. If a gas station wants to provide trash disposal to its customers it can pay for it and make up the difference in its pricing.
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So the cost divorce ISN'T what you actually dislike about deposits, as that would certainly divorce the cost.

It sounds like a relatively difficult to enforce law. Who is going to go through the piles of garbage to count your plastic bottles at the landfill? It's much easier to collect that cost at the front end than the back end. Imagine the wasted time as the trash is sorted carefully and bottles counted to charge the trash dude standing and waiting... Or does he have to get out and separate out the trash before he dumps it into his truck?

Your idea sucks.
 
Damocles said:
So the cost divorce ISN'T what you actually dislike about deposits, as that would certainly divorce the cost.

It sounds like a relatively difficult to enforce law. Who is going to go through the piles of garbage to count your plastic bottles at the landfill? It's much easier to collect that cost at the front end than the back end.

Your idea sucks.
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Well, I haven't really developed a full policy proposal on the issue. I'll let you know when I do.

"It's hard" isn't really a sufficient reason not to do something worthwhile (unless you're governor of Alaska) and pricing in negative externalities, while difficult, is a worthwhile thing to do.



Edit to Respond to Your Edit: In many communities we already ask people to sort through their shit and separate glass from cans from plastic from paper from "trash" and we ask politely that they do it out of the goodness of their hearts instead of throwing all that stuff together in one big bag labeled "trash." My goal is to make it cost more (in real money) to throw everything in one bag labeled "trash" than the "cost" of separating cans from glass from plastic from paper from "trash."
 
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Damocles said:
Just watch the show. They don't always say things are Bullshit on the show, it is just named that. They point out the portions that are bullshit and will tell you the truth if they find that it isn't as well.

Another good one to watch is the global warming show.

I wouldn't say that they take an hour and get into uber details, etc., they couldn't, there isn't enough time. But they hit many of the important aspects.

As for steel, every landfill I've ever visited separates out magnetic material for recycling with a rather large magnet. They also separated out efficient recyclables using a less-efficient means of actual people. They did not take out the plastic bags...
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How many landfills have you visited? :)
 
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