Obama Apology Tour

[Canceled2]

Again, that just not true. Our founding fathers were profoundly impacted by the Great Philosophes of their age which included both Franklin and Jefferson. Faith had little to do with their work and Reason and Critical thinking had everything to do with it. There is a reason why that period in history is called "The Age of Reason".

The founding fathers made it perfectly clear that though faith and religion are all well and fine and important to society but Public Policy is far to important to be based on anything but reason, rational though and critical thinking.

No, it is not wrong. Religion is a philosopical endeavor! These men at the Constitutional Convention certainly did not divorce themselves from their guiding philosophical principles! No one ever does, not me not you. It is silly to think men deliberated for weeks over the radification of a constitution in some sort of mental vacumme. I know that there were also "other" philosophical ideas in play, but your suggestion that the key guiding one was not religious piety and faith is absurd!

It is a determined and ridiculous desire to void our nations history of who exactly were those first immigrants and the brave men and women that followed. The faith and commitment of those who eventually created our founding documents!

 

[TuTu Monroe]

Sheesh!! No matter what you or anyone else says is going to change anyone's mind. This subject could go on for 6 months and no one will agree. You believe what you want to believe and others will believe what they want to believe, based on your own experiences in life.
Europeans came to America to escape religious oppression and forced beliefs by the state affiliated Christian churches like the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England. Because of the civil unrest, it fueled America's forefathers to establish the organization of this country in which the separation of church and state and the freedom to practice one's faith without fear of persecution was guaranteed. Most coming into this country were Protestants. It appears to me that a certain segment of this society still wants to persecute anyone for daring to believe in God.

and yours hangs on an utter disregard for the facts.

 

[Minister of Truth]

No they are not. A Unitarian can be a Christian but not all Unitarians are Christians. Check your facts.

I'm inclined to agree. A Christian must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, so Unitarians really are just Deists, but who take their theology from the Bible...

Similarly, Mormons don't hold Christ to be equal to the Father, so they get labed as non-Christian by many theologians. Obviously, we know what just about everyone else has to say about them...

 

[Cancel5]

Not in the strict sense of the word, Unitarians believe in a monotheism god and do not believe that Jesus was the one god. They do not believe in the Trinity.
They believe that Jesus may have been a supernatural being, but not god. They believe his teachings and think he was great, but not god.

 

[WinterBorn]

Sheesh!! No matter what you or anyone else says is going to change anyone's mind. This subject could go on for 6 months and no one will agree. You believe what you want to believe and others will believe what they want to believe, based on your own experiences in life.
Europeans came to America to escape religious oppression and forced beliefs by the state affiliated Christian churches like the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England. Because of the civil unrest, it fueled America's forefathers to establish the organization of this country in which the separation of church and state and the freedom to practice one's faith without fear of persecution was guaranteed. Most coming into this country were Protestants. It appears to me that a certain segment of this society still wants to persecute anyone for daring to believe in God.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe in God. No problem at all.

But that does not change the facts being discussed at all. But if playing the "Everyone hates us for believing in God" bullshit helps you.

 

[ib1yysguy]

I'd like to persecute believers.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No, it is not wrong. Religion is a philosopical endeavor! These men at the Constitutional Convention certainly did not divorce themselves from their guiding philosophical principles! No one ever does, not me not you. It is silly to think men deliberated for weeks over the radification of a constitution in some sort of mental vacumme. I know that there were also "other" philosophical ideas in play, but your suggestion that the key guiding one was not religious piety and faith is absurd!

It is a determined and ridiculous desire to void our nations history of who exactly were those first immigrants and the brave men and women that followed. The faith and commitment of those who eventually created our founding documents!

No one is trying to. Where your completely divorced from reality was the fact that our founding fathers purposefully intended that our government be a secular government. You've completely ignored my comments that our founding fathers never intended religion to be eliminated from our public life. It was their intention that religion, all religions, should be free of governments coercing and corrupting influence and that as a result religion would prosper both in numbers and diversity and they succeded spectacularly This has nothing to do with their philosophical guidance other then that it drew them to the rational and logical conclusion that government and religion are a bad mix. Public policy is to important to be based on faith. There are just to many peoples lives at stake to do something so irrational and illogical.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm inclined to agree. A Christian must believe in the Trinity to be a Christian, so Unitarians really are just Deists, but who take their theology from the Bible...

Similarly, Mormons don't hold Christ to be equal to the Father, so they get labed as non-Christian by many theologians. Obviously, we know what just about everyone else has to say about them...

I've attended Unitarian Universalist worship. The members of that congregation came from Protestant, Catholic, Islamic and Hindu backgrounds. There are no dogmatic doctrines that one is required to believe in other than a belief in a higher power than oneself regardless of wether that power is called God, Yewah, Allah or Vishnu.

 

[Canceled2]

No one is trying to. Where your completely divorced from reality was the fact that our founding fathers purposefully intended that our government be a secular government. You've completely ignored my comments that our founding fathers never intended religion to be eliminated from our public life. It was their intention that religion, all religions, should be free of governments coercing and corrupting influence and that as a result religion would prosper both in numbers and diversity and they succeded spectacularly This has nothing to do with their philosophical guidance other then that it drew them to the rational and logical conclusion that government and religion are a bad mix. Public policy is to important to be based on faith. There are just to many peoples lives at stake to do something so irrational and illogical.

Perhaps I did miss what you attempted to say. But I was repling to your assertion that other philosophers guided the founding fathers and not THEE great philosopher God Himself. Again that is not to say that there were not other philosophical views brought to bear as well.

They wanted to protect both government (being the people) and the Christian faith the religion widely practiced, from each other in that government could not interfere in religious practice and that we, the government, would not establish a national church

You miss the nuance of philosophical world views and the influence thay have over all policy and all laws drawn up by men and governments. If a mans philasophical world view is Christian, he WILL bring that to bear in how he deliberates.

 

[ib1yysguy]

God is a philosopher now. lol

Add that to the list: genocidal maniac, egomaniac, artist, author, and now philosopher.

 

[Whomever]

My argument hinges on the fact that being a member of a church was a requirement for political office.

Many of the leaders of early America were Masons and had to profess a belief is some supreme being.

 

[Whomever]

I've attended Unitarian Universalist worship. The members of that congregation came from Protestant, Catholic, Islamic and Hindu backgrounds. There are no dogmatic doctrines that one is required to believe in other than a belief in a higher power than oneself regardless of wether that power is called God, Yewah, Allah or Vishnu.

Same as the illuminati Freemasons.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Perhaps I did miss what you attempted to say. But I was repling to your assertion that other philosophers guided the founding fathers and not THEE great philosopher God Himself. Again that is not to say that there were not other philosophical views brought to bear as well.

They wanted to protect both government (being the people) and the Christian faith the religion widely practiced, from each other in that government could not interfere in religious practice and that we, the government, would not establish a national church

You miss the nuance of philosophical world views and the influence thay have over all policy and all laws drawn up by men and governments. If a mans philasophical world view is Christian, he WILL bring that to bear in how he deliberates.

I didn't say "Philosophers" I said "The Great Philosophs" meaning specifically the great philosophers or the age of reason, Rousseau, Descartes, Franklin, Jefferson, Voltaire, Kant, etc, from The Enlightenment period. These specific philosophers, of whom several were our founding fathers, wrote in contradiction to and in conflict with Church doctrine. They wrote of natural rights, rights such as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion and the intellectual freedom to publish ones thoughts on such subjects. Rights which the Christian church vehemently opposed in that period. So in this light there can be no argument that it was enlightenment values and not christian values which were the fundamental guiding philosophy of the founding fathers as they constructed our Republic.

 

[Canceled2]

I didn't say "Philosophers" I said "The Great Philosophs" meaning specifically the great philosophers or the age of reason, Rousseau, Descartes, Franklin, Jefferson, Voltaire, Kant, etc, from The Enlightenment period. These specific philosophers, of whom several were our founding fathers, wrote in contradiction to and in conflict with Church doctrine. They wrote of natural rights, rights such as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion and the intellectual freedom to publish ones thoughts on such subjects. Rights which the Christian church vehemently opposed in that period. So in this light there can be no argument that it was enlightenment values and not christian values which were the fundamental guiding philosophy of the founding fathers as they constructed our Republic.

The Church did not vehemently oppose any such thing! OH, you mean the Church of England???

Here we have thousands of quotes and references to God by these men and yet YOU vehemently deny that those references indicate a faith, belief, or value to these men? A value and influence over their conscience as they participated in laying the groundwork for this nation, ridiculous!

Tell me how the "enlightenment age" was even possible apart from the Reformation? Classical Liberalism was born from the Reformation FCOL!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The Church did not vehemently oppose any such thing! OH, you mean the Church of England???

Here we have thousands of quotes and references to God by these men and yet YOU vehemently deny that those references indicate a faith, belief, or value to these men? A value and influence over their conscience as they participated in laying the groundwork for this nation, ridiculous!

Tell me how the "enlightenment age" was even possible apart from the Reformation? Classical Liberalism was born from the Reformation FCOL!

No. I mean all the mainstream Christian Churches. Protestant and Catholic. Go do some homework. I'm not telling you anything that is not generally and well known. Christian churches opposed greatly what we consider human rights and natural rights. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, Freedom of Religion, Intellectual Freedom, Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny, etc, etc. The Christian churches not only opposed there values in thought and deed they opposed them militantly.

To anyone who has taken the least little minutest bit of effort to read any of the Great Philosoph's from the era or the Enlightenment and then reads the constitution it becomes just plain rediculous to make a claim that our constitution is based on Christian principle. That's just plain ludicrous and you can argue until the cows come home and that won't change the fact.

The DOI and the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution were the culmination of the age of Reason from the Elightenment era and was profoundly influenced by the Enlightenment Philosoph's and not only was in NOT based on Christian principle, it was directly opposed to Christian principle and doctrine of that time.

To say that the age of Enlightenment was born from the Reformation is a mischaracterization and could be termed a "straw-man" argument. The history of the Enlightenment draws it's origins from itself and its characters whom advocated freedom for common people based on natural rights, self government, natural law (science) and a central emphasis on liberty, individual rights, reason and the principles of deism. It was a tacit rejection of the Christian tradition of divine rights monarchy, theocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy, religious authority and religious based intellectual censorship and conformity.

It would be far more correct to say that the advent of the industrial revolution had a greater impact on the origin of Enlightenment ideas and their dissemination then the Reformation did.

 

[Canceled2]

No. I mean all the mainstream Christian Churches. Protestant and Catholic. Go do some homework. I'm not telling you anything that is not generally and well known. Christian churches opposed greatly what we consider human rights and natural rights. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, Freedom of Religion, Intellectual Freedom, Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny, etc, etc. The Christian churches not only opposed there values in thought and deed they opposed them militantly.

To anyone who has taken the least little minutest bit of effort to read any of the Great Philosoph's from the era or the Enlightenment and then reads the constitution it becomes just plain rediculous to make a claim that our constitution is based on Christian principle. That's just plain ludicrous and you can argue until the cows come home and that won't change the fact.

The DOI and the Bill of Rights in the US Constitution were the culmination of the age of Reason from the Elightenment era and was profoundly influenced by the Enlightenment Philosoph's and not only was in NOT based on Christian principle, it was directly opposed to Christian principle and doctrine of that time.

To say that the age of Enlightenment was born from the Reformation is a mischaracterization and could be termed a "straw-man" argument. The history of the Enlightenment draws it's origins from itself and its characters whom advocated freedom for common people based on natural rights, self government, natural law (science) and a central emphasis on liberty, individual rights, reason and the principles of deism. It was a tacit rejection of the Christian tradition of divine rights monarchy, theocracy, oligarchy, aristocracy, religious authority and religious based intellectual censorship and conformity.

It would be far more correct to say that the advent of the industrial revolution had a greater impact on the origin of Enlightenment ideas and their dissemination then the Reformation did.

I guess the fact that in all of our early archetecture from Capital buildings to Court houses to Schools and even public parks that references to the Christian faith was just a mask for the Enlightenment Age as well? A cloak and dagger sort of protection against pursecution by the religious. That all these men who shaped our nation only pretended to believe in God.

 

[Damocles]

That conflicts directly with what you stated earlier: "As a deist he called on and praise Providence on numerous occasions."

lol poor Solitary

In what way? Notice the P in Providence was capitalized? It is direct reference to a more generic version of the Creator.

Deists usually do not name the Creator, they don't believe that He really is that benevolent and interfering type of God you get in the Bible.

 

[Canceled2]

In what way? Notice the P in Providence was capitalized? It is direct reference to a more generic version of the Creator.

Deists usually do not name the Creator, they don't believe that He really is that benevolent and interfering type of God you get in the Bible.

The term Providence refers to the sovereignty, superintendence, or agency of God over events in people's lives God's ordaining power of whatever will be, simply put, means what was ordained to happen. Meaining of course an involevment by God in events.

 

[Adam Weinberg]

Technically we are the world's second largest country geographically (after Russia), and we have Muslims living here. Right?

I believe we are third after Canada. Since we're all on subject and everything.

Don't know where Obama comes off saying this. A more appropriate example (though perhaps controversial) would be to point out that France has more Muslims than many Middle Eastern countries on their own, so perhaps that can be a beginning point where the West in general can be more understanding of who the Muslims really are.

If you really want to stretch it, you could argue we have more Muslims in this country than probably most countries where Muslims are not part of the plurality or majority. But then, we also have way more people than a lot of countries, so they really are a small percentage of the population at this point in time.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

George Washington was not a christian. He did not attend church except as a perfuntory social obligation or to staisfy his wife and he even avoided answering when the clergy tried to pin him down on it as he left office.

The Treaty of Tripoli stood as I quoted it for 8 years. The entire treaty was rewritten and signed later and did not include those famous lines.

But it is documented that the original treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and that copies of the treaty were distributed to all the members. And they all voted to accept the treaty. There is no documentation of any objection by the senate of the wording of the treaty. So it is obvious that the senate accepted and agreed with the statement that this is not a christian nation.

As far as the Declaration of Independence goes it is a document that details our rebellious intentions against England. It lists grievances of the thirteen colonies. It came before our government existed at all. And the mention of a creator does not in any way indicate a christian government or even a christian god. You want to interpret it that way. And when the founding fathers did form our government they made sure that it was not a christian nation and that the government could not advocate for or follow any religion's doctrines.

He satisfied his wife in Church???!!!!

YOU GO, GEORGE.