Was 2020 election stolen or not?

[Into the Night]

The electoral vote was certified state after state and sealed.

You have to have electors to have an electorial vote. At least seven States never chose their electors.

Those documents were taken to the capitol for ceremonial verification by the joint house. The vote was known and determined before 1-6.

No. The votes are counted on 1/6.

Trump tried to steal it and he has not completely stopped.

Steal what? There was no election. Trump was already president at the time.

That is the theft that should be talked about.

What theft? You can't steal what does not exist.

 

[Into the Night]

You do produce an argument when faced with facts you can't logically disprove.

Vacuous argument fallacy.

Calling the source material lies without any logical proof is just parroting foolishness.

Void authority fallacy.

You've got nothing but you don't have the intellectual maturity to just concede a point...instead, you just babble and repeat disproven assertions. You're done. Carry on.

Argument of the stone fallacy. Bulverism fallacy. Assumption of victory fallacy. Attempted proof by void.

 

[Into the Night]

No shyte, Sherlock. WTF do you think we're debating about? Hint: should the electoral college still exist.

Then why do you keep arguing about popular votes for president? You're clueless.

The electoral college and it's purpose has already been outlined in the federalist papers. It is designed to give each State representation in the process of choosing the President. Each State is part of the Union after all. The legislature of each State chooses it's electors. The number of electors chosen is based partially on population, but is also based on the simple fact that a State is a State of the Union.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes, electoral votes count regardless of who they voted for. However, these votes did not mean 1) that each state did not give most of its electoral votes to the popular vote winner; 2) or that those faithless electoral votes changed who won the electoral college and became president.
While individual Americans don't have to reveal who they voted for, electoral votes are done publicly (often televised on C-SPAN). We know who each elector voted for. There is no gray area about who voted for whom in the electoral college.

Paradox D.

I don't understand your point about exit polls. It has nothing to do with popular or electoral votes. They are only done in a small number of representative precincts. Usually, if somebody declines to answer you ask the next person (usually they ask every 8th person, for example, based on how many they want in their sample).

There is no point. The President is not elected by popular vote.

The electoral college was never intended to reflect a majority of individuals because the founders opposed majority rule. Today, our views are more favorable toward democracy and majority rule.

The United States was never a democracy. There are currently no democracies anywhere on Earth. The United States is organized as a federated republic.

But, in most cases (54 out of 59 elections) the popular vote winner has won the presidency.

The President is not elected by popular vote.

So, in practice, it reflects the plurality of the people. It does not require a majority of votes (except electoral) and many presidents have been elected with a plurality but not a majority of popular votes: Clinton (1992 & 1996), Nixon (1968), Kennedy (1960), Lincoln (1860).

The President is not elected by popular vote.

 

[Into the Night]

There is no similarity between 2000 and 2020. In 2000 the popular vote winner (by 500,000) did not win the electoral vote. In 2020 the popular vote winner (by 7 million) won the electoral vote.

I don't think Jeb Bush did anything to give the election to George. Most people attribute the win to the Supreme Court which stopped the counting. However, if the SC had not acted the Republican state legislature was probably going to award the electors to Bush.

The president is not elected by popular vote.

 

[Into the Night]

They cheated the 2020 election. They used 2000 FL as a template and did the same thing in all the states they could.

Was it slick? Yeah. Was it fair and honest and Democracy? Hell no.

The United States never was a democracy.

 

[Flash]

The legislature of the State of Georgia didn't choose any electors. They filed contested.

You obviously ignored the document whereby GA submitted their electors to Congress signed by all the electors. Any contest of those results were not successful. The fact that GA & AZ electors were included in the final electoral vote count proves they counted.

Can you show us any documentation by the state of GA contesting the submission of electors?

You ignore reality. Your claims about what happened are as farfetched as you predictions about what was going to happen.

Into the Night 12/31
"Currently, it looks like GA is going to choose Republican electors.
AZ looks like it might also, but seems to be further away from actually choosing."

Do you think Trump is going to be "reinstated"?

 

[Flash]

The president is not elected by popular vote.

Never said the president is elected by popular vote. You keep stating an irrelevant point.

However, the popular vote winner has won the electoral vote 54 out of 59 elections.

 

[Into the Night]

no, but the 2016 election definitely was

Paradox. Which is it, dude?

 

[Into the Night]

Paranoid. Still no evidence to demonstrate any fraud and most easily disproven.

Trying to ignore THAT evidence too, eh?

 

[Flash]

Trying to ignore THAT evidence too, eh?

Nothing to ignore. We are still waiting to see any evidence. Most has been totally disproven and others are mere claims with no evidence.

 

[Into the Night]

You obviously ignored the document whereby GA submitted their electors to Congress signed by all the electors.

Georgia never chose any electors.

Any contest of those results were not successful.

Congress does not choose the electors for Georgia.

The fact that GA & AZ electors were included in the final electoral vote count proves they counted.

Attempted proof by assumption. Neither Georgia nor Arizona chose any electors.

Can you show us any documentation by the state of GA contesting the submission of electors?

Attempted force of negative proof fallacy.

You ignore reality.

Buzzword fallacy.

Your claims about what happened are as farfetched as you predictions about what was going to happen.

Nothing happened.

Into the Night 12/31
"Currently, it looks like GA is going to choose Republican electors.
AZ looks like it might also, but seems to be further away from actually choosing."

Turns out the didn't choose any electors.

Do you think Trump is going to be "reinstated"?

Unknown. I already answered this question. RQAA.

 

[Into the Night]

Never said the president is elected by popular vote.

Denial of self argument. You have created another paradox (paradox E). This is argument 1.

You keep stating an irrelevant point.

Inversion fallacy. YOU keep stating an irrelevant point, which is why I am calling you on it.

However, the popular vote winner has won the electoral vote 54 out of 59 elections.

This is argument 2. Paradox E. Which is it, dude?

The President is not elected by popular vote.

 

[Into the Night]

Nothing to ignore.

You can't wish evidence away, dude.

We are still waiting to see any evidence.

You can't wish evidence away, dude.

Most has been totally disproven

Attempted proof by declaration...a fallacy.

and others are mere claims with no evidence.

You can't wish away the evidence, dude.

 

[Flash]

Georgia never chose any electors.

Why are the electors from GA and AZ included in the electoral vote total?

You are rejecting the actions of the state legislature that constitutionally submitted those electors to Congress to be certified.

Congress does not choose the electors for Georgia.

Irrelevant. Nobody ever said Congress chose electors. However, Congress did accept the slate of electors GA submitted and rejected any objections.

 

[Grokmaster]

YEAH, WHEN ONE PARTY BLATANTLY VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION, USING A PANDEMIC AS ITS "EXCUSE" TO STEAL AN ELECTION , BY ILLEGALLY CHANGING ELECTION LAWS AND STANDARDS,THUS ALLOWING UNVETTED, UNVERIFIED MAIL IN BALLOTS...WHAT DO YOU CALL IT??

AND, BTW, NO COURT EVER RULED ON THIS ISSUE...THE ILLEGAL CHANGING OF ELECTION LAWS, BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCHES OF DEMOCRAT GOVERNED STATES...EVER.

GETTING AWAY WITH IT...DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL...

 

[Flash]

Georgia never chose any electors.

The state of Georgia certifies they did (three times). The electors were chosen based on the law passed by the state legislature and certified by the governor. The legislature does not actually choose the electors. I presented the document proving the elector were certified. You can produce nothing showing any contested electors.

Georgia officials certify election results showing Biden win

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-certify-election-joe-biden-ea8f867d740f3d7d42d0a55c1aef9e69

Georgia Again Certifies Biden’s Win Recertification marks third time Georgia officials counted ballots cast in presidential election

https://www.wsj.com/articles/georgia-again-certifies-bidens-win-11607372810

Attempts to contest the electors fell flat. 5 Republican Georgia U. S. House members objected to the results but could not get a single Republican Senator to co-sponsor.

Six Georgia state legislators sought a special session to select a separate set of electors but the governor refused to call the session. Not only that, but a Georgia law "prohibits the Georgia General Assembly from choosing delegates to the Electoral College except in cases where an election cannot be held"

So, attempts to contest the electors failed.

Congress does not choose the electors for Georgia.

Irrelevant. Nobody ever said Congress chooses electors. However, Congress did accept the slate of electors GA submitted.

Simply looking at the final electoral college vote shows all states cast electoral votes certified by those states and accepted by Congress.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The state of Georgia certifies they did (three times). The electors were chosen based on the law passed by the state legislature and certified by the governor. The legislature does not actually choose the electors. I presented the document proving the elector were certified. You can produce nothing showing any contested electors.

Georgia officials certify election results showing Biden win

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-certify-election-joe-biden-ea8f867d740f3d7d42d0a55c1aef9e69

Georgia Again Certifies Biden’s Win Recertification marks third time Georgia officials counted ballots cast in presidential election

https://www.wsj.com/articles/georgia-again-certifies-bidens-win-11607372810

Attempts to contest the electors fell flat. 5 Republican Georgia U. S. House members objected to the results but could not get a single Republican Senator to co-sponsor.

Six Georgia state legislators sought a special session to select a separate set of electors but the governor refused to call the session. Not only that, but a Georgia law "prohibits the Georgia General Assembly from choosing delegates to the Electoral College except in cases where an election cannot be held"

So, attempts to contest the electors failed.





Irrelevant. Nobody ever said Congress chooses electors. However, Congress did accept the slate of electors GA submitted.

Simply looking at the final electoral college vote shows all states cast electoral votes certified by those states and accepted by Congress.

Agreed on the factualness of certification.

Have you ever seen how a good judge handles someone who everyone can see is mentally shy of the normal range?

 

[Flash]

Agreed on the factualness of certification.

Have you ever seen how a good judge handles someone who everyone can see is mentally shy of the normal range?

I never give up trying.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Okay, let's try it this way. A quote from one of my links which you pontificate on:

7 faithless electors were able to have their faithless votes registered, 2 others were replaced, and one voter switched his vote on the second ballot.

[/FONT][/SIZE][/I]Yes, electoral votes count regardless of who they voted for. However, these votes did not mean 1) that each state did not give most of its electoral votes to the popular vote winner; 2) or that those faithless electoral votes changed who won the electoral college and became president.




While individual Americans don't have to reveal who they voted for, electoral votes are done publicly (often televised on C-SPAN). We know who each elector voted for. There is no gray area about who voted for whom in the electoral college.

Quote Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
I highlighted the significant point here.....this is in referral to the FACT that once ANY American votes, they are NOT OBLIGATED by any law to tell whom they voted for. Any exit poll uses those who comply, not those who declined (a combination equals total number of voters). So we're given yet another gray area as to whom exactly voted for whom in the electoral college....which (again) validates my previous point that the "margins" still point to an "estimated" shift. There shouldn't be any. You shouldn't have a 2% lead in the popular only to be superceded by a comparative electoral vote. The other link alludes to just this, with some electoral voters admitting they didn't vote for the primary 2 party candidates.

I don't understand your point about exit polls. It has nothing to do with popular or electoral votes. They are only done in a small number of representative precincts. Usually, if somebody declines to answer you ask the next person (usually they ask every 8th person, for example, based on how many they want in their sample).

And I am completely baffled by what you mean by "(a combination equals total number of voters)" A combination of what? What equals the total number of votes.

Again, if you want to argue that the electoral vote does not always reflect the popular vote you are correct. But, it is not because some electors did not vote for the person they are pledged to support because there are so few who do this.

The electoral college was never intended to reflect a majority of individuals because the founders opposed majority rule. Today, our views are more favorable toward democracy and majority rule. But, in most cases (54 out of 59 elections) the popular vote winner has won the presidency. So, in practice, it reflects the plurality of the people. It does not require a majority of votes (except electoral) and many presidents have been elected with a plurality but not a majority of popular votes: Clinton (1992 & 1996), Nixon (1968), Kennedy (1960), Lincoln (1860).

1. Again, a slew of moot points by you that does not indicate you understood why I highlighted what I did. Your response here was unnecessary as one needs to read the WHOLE paragraph to get the context.

2. Wrong again. What's announced on C-Span are the RESULTS....NOT what each individual electoral rep voted. That is my point and what the information we sussed over is about, that like the regular citizen in the popular vote, individual electoral voters are NOT obliged or required to announce who they voted for.....that comes out after the vote in a general breakdown....there is no way to guarantee that the electoral voter will rightfully represent the true majority in his/her state.

3. My point about exit polls is that they are not accurate, no matter how you break it down. Many a time the media uses such to give the public an indiction of who is likely to win....if people see that candidate X is beating out candidate Y in by a large margin via an exit poll, they may not be inclined to go out and vote for Candidate Y. Combine this with the options that electoral voters have, and you have the issue we are discussing.

4. Repeating this line of yours doesn't make sense, as I've logically pointed out time and again using basic facts.

5. Your opening sentence is dead wrong. FYI: https://www.archives.gov/electoral-...lished the,popular vote of qualified citizens.