BAC - "Slaves to religion"

ib1yysguy said:
I'm not comparing it to slavery, retard. I'm comparing the two groups of people struggling for civil rights.
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if you're not comparing it to slavery, the what difference at all does it make if blacks (whom not all had ancestors who were slaves) are for or against gay marriage....you said you don't understand how they can weild the stick of depression, as if they should know better....so yes, you are in fact comparing this to slavery, eg, oppression.
 
Yurt said:
if you're not comparing it to slavery, the what difference at all does it make if blacks (whom not all had ancestors who were slaves) are for or against gay marriage....you said you don't understand how they can weild the stick of depression, as if they should know better....so yes, you are in fact comparing this to slavery, eg, oppression.
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CIVIL RIGHTS, moron. I'm comparing them as civil rights causes. Black people dealt with a fucking lot of discrimination after 1865 which was institutionalized in law in many places. Take for instance the Alabama law that prevented blacks from marrying whites. You'll notice that just about every argument Dixie will make if you engage him on this issue would be something that one could have said (and people probably did say) in defense of interracial marriage laws.

Then you have other discrimination that occurred like segregation, etc. You're a fucking retard that I had to explain this to you.
 
Dixie said:
Nope... There is a fundamental right to have the opportunity to marry. Homosexuals share this same fundamental right with every American. There is no "right to marry" because marriage is between a consenting man and woman. I don't have the "right" to marry someone who doesn't want to marry me back.
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homosexuals do not have the opportunity to marry dixie....so no, they do not have the same opportunities or rights as others.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
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My favorite thing that Dixie likes to say is, "Gays have the right to marry the opposite sex like everyone else!" His daddy used to say, "Blacks have the right to marry their same race just like everyone else!"
 
ib1yysguy said:
CIVIL RIGHTS, moron. I'm comparing them as civil rights causes. Black people dealt with a fucking lot of discrimination after 1865 which was institutionalized in law in many places. Take for instance the Alabama law that prevented blacks from marrying whites. You'll notice that just about every argument Dixie will make if you engage him on this issue would be something that one could have said (and people probably did say) in defense of interracial marriage laws.

Then you have other discrimination that occurred like segregation, etc. You're a fucking retard that I had to explain this to you.
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gee....your title "slaves to religion" sure did make your point clear that you weren't inferring anything about black slavery, just happen to use the word SLAVES :pke:

you are not at all clear that you were not talking about slavery. "wield the stick of oppression"....etc...it is absolutely a rational reading of your words to think you were in fact comparing the issues....
 
Yurt said:
gee....your title "slaves to religion" sure did make your point clear that you weren't inferring anything about black slavery, just happen to use the word SLAVES :pke:

you are not at all clear that you were not talking about slavery. "wield the stick of oppression"....etc...it is absolutely a rational reading of your words to think you were in fact comparing the issues....
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I was quoting BAC, hoping to get him to expound upon it.

You think segregation and uneven legislation like rape laws that meant consensual sex between a black man and a white woman still constituted rape isn't oppression? Of course it is.

That's where the profound irony comes in. They don't hesitate to oppress anyone themselves. It's shocking to the conscience.
 
Yurt said:
homosexuals do not have the opportunity to marry dixie....so no, they do not have the same opportunities or rights as others.
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Uhmmm... I'm sorry Yurt, but in every state in America, homosexuals have the same right to marry as everyone else! They do not have the right to marry within the same sex, just like we don't have the right to marry goats, kids, other married people, or dead people!

The SCOTUS wording is poorly written. We do have a fundamental civil right to the opportunity to get married, that is what they are talking about, and with regard to interracial marriage and the laws of the past which prohibited them, those were violating this fundamental civil right. Since "marriage" is the union between a MAN and WOMAN, and NOT the union of same sex partners, homosexuals are not having any civil right violated here, they are simply being denied the right to do something we've never allowed before, which is NOT a right. It is no more a homosexual's "right" to marry someone of the same sex, as it is a pedophiles right to have sex with children.
 
ib1yysguy said:
I was quoting BAC, hoping to get him to expound upon it.

You think segregation and uneven legislation like rape laws that meant consensual sex between a black man and a white woman still constituted rape isn't oppression? Of course it is.

That's where the profound irony comes in. They don't hesitate to oppress anyone themselves. It's shocking to the conscience.
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i may have already asked you, but do you support anyone's (of legal age of consent) right to get married? mother/son....?
 
Dixie said:
Uhmmm... I'm sorry Yurt, but in every state in America, homosexuals have the same right to marry as everyone else! They do not have the right to marry within the same sex, just like we don't have the right to marry goats, kids, other married people, or dead people!

The SCOTUS wording is poorly written. We do have a fundamental civil right to the opportunity to get married, that is what they are talking about, and with regard to interracial marriage and the laws of the past which prohibited them, those were violating this fundamental civil right. Since "marriage" is the union between a MAN and WOMAN, and NOT the union of same sex partners, homosexuals are not having any civil right violated here, they are simply being denied the right to do something we've never allowed before, which is NOT a right. It is no more a homosexual's "right" to marry someone of the same sex, as it is a pedophiles right to have sex with children.
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no where in the US constitution does it say marriage is between a man and a woman....whites and blacks were denied something we've never allowed before...now, nope, overturned in Loving...

it is a given that we have an "opportunity", no is claiming if you are an ugly bastard who has rancid ramen noodles for brains has a right to marry and if they never get that "dream" girl that they have a right to sue the goverment....

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious SEXUAL ORIENTATION discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of THE SAME GENDER resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.
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you don't changing racial for sexual orientation will fly? i think it will....
 
Yurt said:
no where in the US constitution does it say marriage is between a man and a woman....whites and blacks were denied something we've never allowed before...now, nope, overturned in Loving...

it is a given that we have an "opportunity", no is claiming if you are an ugly bastard who has rancid ramen noodles for brains has a right to marry and if they never get that "dream" girl that they have a right to sue the goverment....



you don't changing racial for sexual orientation will fly? i think it will....
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Sorry Yurt, people were able to marry someone of the opposite sex all day long, it wasn't something we never allowed before, it was something we allowed all the time, if you were the right color. The "wrong" was not allowing someone the opportunity to do what everyone else was doing, on the basis of skin color. That is not the case here, no one has the opportunity to marry someone of the same sex, that isn't what marriage is.


...no is claiming if you are an ugly bastard who has rancid ramen noodles for brains has a right to marry...

That's exactly what you are claiming, if you maintain we have the "right to marry!" As I said, the SCOTUS ruling was worded poorly. We do NOT have the "right to marry" and there are any number of restrictions we currently put on the conditions by which you can marry. These restrictions would be a violation of our "right to marry" if we had such a right! We simply DON'T!

Marriage is what "marriage" is, and pretending the definition is arbitrary, doesn't win the argument here, sorry. If homosexuals were being told they could not marry because they are gay, and were not being allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex like everyone else, THEN the parallels could be made to Interracial marriage, as it stands, you are confusing something that is allowed across the board to every American, with something the Gay Activists are demanding, which has never been allowed in our society. Two completely different things!

And no, simply changing "race" to "sexual orientation" doesn't suffice. Once you establish "marriage" to mean something it was never intended to mean, and once you define "marriage" based on sexual lifestyle choice, you set yourself up for quite the dilemma. The Constitution says that you must apply the laws fairly and without discrimination.... so, if we have created this atrocity called "gay marriage" and established it based on sexual lifestyle preference, we must allow any and all similar claims for the same "right" from other sexual deviants. Polygamists have already said, if Gay Marriage ever is passed into law on a national level, they will push their 'multi-wife' agenda... so that is waiting in the wings once we establish the criteria for marriage based on sexual lifestyle choice. Certainly, not to be denied, will follow the NAMBLA people, or those who want to marry the dead, nutcases who want to marry their German Shepherds, etc. It never ends, because we set the plate... we established marriage to be something which can be defined according to sexuality and lifestyle, and we will have to deal with the consequences.

It is a precedent that doesn't ever need to be set, and if we ever do, we will live to regret. This doesn't mean I have no solution for homosexual couples and their situation. I believe they should have the opportunity to obtain every right of straight couples, and this can be done through comprehensive Civil Unions legislation. Furthermore, the CU solution also offers an alternative for the elderly being cared for by their children, an aging mother or father might enter into a CU contract with their son or daughter, to take advantage of tax breaks etc. The CU alternative takes the issue of "sexuality" or "lifestyle choice" out of the equation, as well as removing the "sanctity of marriage" religious aspects.
 
ib1yysguy said:
It's hard to know sometimes when you're serious and when you're saying something tongue in cheek because you're so all over the board consistency wise that it's tough to know where you stand.

I made a comment yesterday about how erked I am at the huge proportion of blacks that voted to discriminate against the gay minority in California, as well as the other Christians who did so. The profoundly distrubing thing to me isn't the fact that Christian evangelicals voted in such high numbers against the rights of gay Americans, but that blacks (who one would expect be among the most sensitive to such things) did so as well.

I want your thoughts on this. There are a lot of people in this country I would categorize as being "slaves to religion" and African Americans certainly aren't alone in that category. What makes their vote on this so upsetting is precisely the willingness of the black community in California to wield the stick of oppression against a minority they dislike. It's really heart breaking.

What are your thoughts?
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Sorry I'm late to your question good brother.

I was serious when I said African-Americans are homophobic and we are slaves to religion. I don't just say this here, I say it all the time and at every opportunity to other African-Americans. Sometimes I inject into conversation that has nothing to do with this subject. Get me on a college campus and I don't care what the topic is, somehow, someway, I'm going to slide it in. I slid it in while on a panel discussing RAC technology on an Oracle database .. and got away with it.

Why am I so vehement about it? Because as a people we should be ashamed of ourselves. It goes against every correct and just position we ever taken. It is hypocrisy of the highest order. I understand the background and the history that led us to such an unworthy position, but neither that background or history lessens the shame and evil of our actions today.

Much of that evil is rooted in religiousity my brother. We are slaves to religiousity. If you're a politician and you're running for office in the black community, you MUST spend considerable time visiting churches. I know that story very well. Politicians who ignore churches in black communities, or simply refuse to kiss the ass of preachers/pimps, will not be supported by them or their congregation/sheep. Obama knew that. So he used Wright, then when he didn't need him, he tossed his ass under the bus.

Even deeper, the black church is about 75% black women, 25% black men. The leadership of the black church is about 80% black men. Thus, the black church is supported by black women and black women are some of the most conservative people in America, sans all the racism. If you're going to talk to black women about gay rights, bring some boxing gloves. They ain't hearing it, ain't having it. This in spite of the fact that many of the men in the black church are themselves gay .. sometimes including the preacher. Black men don't generally participate in church because we know a pimp when we see one. These guys don't drive Cadillacs, they drive Bentley's.

For hundreds of years the church was the only outlet of free expression for African-Americans and the minister was about the only person who could speak against the system without fear of arrest or retribution. Thus, leadership came from the black church. It's no mystery why Dr. King, Jackson, Sharpton, and even Malcolm X emerged as leaders. Church has been a big part of our lives and an instrument of the struggle. It was the center of many communities. But just like whites slaves to the church, their black counterparts are indoctrinated with the same anti-homosexual bullshit and the results are the same.

Truth is, we know better. We are better than this. But we seem trapped between religiousity and common sense. Our loyalty to the mindfuck of religiousity impedes our development as a people. All I can do is speak truth to ignorance and push our faces in the mirror whenever I can. I can speak bible with them and I know more religious history than most christians. They don't know the homosexual stories of the bible. They don't know King James was a homosexual pedophile .. which does not imply that they are one in the same .. just that King James was.

They also don't know that a great many gays stood right next to us during the struggles of civil rights. Shame, shame on us.

I don't get into celebrity, but I wonder what Ellen DeGeneres must be thinking now. I know she has a sincere and deep affinity to black people and our struggles .. yet we slapped her in the face.

What can I say?

I'm deeply ashamed.
 
ib1yysguy said:
OMG I DIDN'T KNOW OBAMA WAS FOR CIVIL UNIONS AND NOT GAY MARRIAGE I HATE OBAMA NOW I CAN'T BELIEVE I VOTED FOR HIM OMGOMG

Seriously. Black people voting against the civil rights of another group of individuals reeks of tragic irony. Religion isn't an excuse, it's the problem.
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I totally agree.
 
Yurt said:
if you're not comparing it to slavery, the what difference at all does it make if blacks (whom not all had ancestors who were slaves) are for or against gay marriage....you said you don't understand how they can weild the stick of depression, as if they should know better....so yes, you are in fact comparing this to slavery, eg, oppression.
Click to expand...

NO, he isn't

As he said, he's comparing the civil rights struggles of the two groups, one of which (blacks) should be demonstrating the same affinity for the other as gays did for us.
 
That's answers that. Thanks for your honest and thorough answer. I agree on all accounts that I can empathize with given my background as a white male. I met Jessie Jackson on one occasion. He tickled my belly as I was taking photos of the guy for the newspaper I was working for at the time. That's as close to the black church as I've ever been, so I can say I learned something in this thread.
 
blackascoal said:
Sorry I'm late to your question good brother.

I was serious when I said African-Americans are homophobic and we are slaves to religion. I don't just say this here, I say it all the time and at every opportunity to other African-Americans. Sometimes I inject into conversation that has nothing to do with this subject. Get me on a college campus and I don't care what the topic is, somehow, someway, I'm going to slide it in. I slid it in while on a panel discussing RAC technology on an Oracle database .. and got away with it.

Why am I so vehement about it? Because as a people we should be ashamed of ourselves. It goes against every correct and just position we ever taken. It is hypocrisy of the highest order. I understand the background and the history that led us to such an unworthy position, but neither that background or history lessens the shame and evil of our actions today.

Much of that evil is rooted in religiousity my brother. We are slaves to religiousity. If you're a politician and you're running for office in the black community, you MUST spend considerable time visiting churches. I know that story very well. Politicians who ignore churches in black communities, or simply refuse to kiss the ass of preachers/pimps, will not be supported by them or their congregation/sheep. Obama knew that. So he used Wright, then when he didn't need him, he tossed his ass under the bus.

Even deeper, the black church is about 75% black women, 25% black men. The leadership of the black church is about 80% black men. Thus, the black church is supported by black women and black women are some of the most conservative people in America, sans all the racism. If you're going to talk to black women about gay rights, bring some boxing gloves. They ain't hearing it, ain't having it. This in spite of the fact that many of the men in the black church are themselves gay .. sometimes including the preacher. Black men don't generally participate in church because we know a pimp when we see one. These guys don't drive Cadillacs, they drive Bentley's.

For hundreds of years the church was the only outlet of free expression for African-Americans and the minister was about the only person who could speak against the system without fear of arrest or retribution. Thus, leadership came from the black church. It's no mystery why Dr. King, Jackson, Sharpton, and even Malcolm X emerged as leaders. Church has been a big part of our lives and an instrument of the struggle. It was the center of many communities. But just like whites slaves to the church, their black counterparts are indoctrinated with the same anti-homosexual bullshit and the results are the same.

Truth is, we know better. We are better than this. But we seem trapped between religiousity and common sense. Our loyalty to the mindfuck of religiousity impedes our development as a people. All I can do is speak truth to ignorance and push our faces in the mirror whenever I can. I can speak bible with them and I know more religious history than most christians. They don't know the homosexual stories of the bible. They don't know King James was a homosexual pedophile .. which does not imply that they are one in the same .. just that King James was.

They also don't know that a great many gays stood right next to us during the struggles of civil rights. Shame, shame on us.

I don't get into celebrity, but I wonder what Ellen DeGeneres must be thinking now. I know she has a sincere and deep affinity to black people and our struggles .. yet we slapped her in the face.

What can I say?

I'm deeply ashamed.
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Very good post and explanation.

I wonder if there is also more of a sexuality to some black cultures that are either offended or threatened by homosexuality. I mean no disrespect but there seems to be a big divide between the open sexuality of some and the primness of the church going black women.
 
I really do believe religion is mostly harmful now. I didn't used to feel this way. It does have some good stuff in it, but the authoritarian mindlessness at the ultimate root of its authority is too much to countenance.

We can still have morality. Read my sig for that.
 
But, bad news bac, eco wacko earth mother gaiaism is also a religion, and has genocide at it's core. so. We still have to talk about that.
 
ib1yysguy said:
It's hard to know sometimes when you're serious and when you're saying something tongue in cheek because you're so all over the board consistency wise that it's tough to know where you stand.

I made a comment yesterday about how erked I am at the huge proportion of blacks that voted to discriminate against the gay minority in California, as well as the other Christians who did so. The profoundly distrubing thing to me isn't the fact that Christian evangelicals voted in such high numbers against the rights of gay Americans, but that blacks (who one would expect be among the most sensitive to such things) did so as well.

I want your thoughts on this. There are a lot of people in this country I would categorize as being "slaves to religion" and African Americans certainly aren't alone in that category. What makes their vote on this so upsetting is precisely the willingness of the black community in California to wield the stick of oppression against a minority they dislike. It's really heart breaking.

What are your thoughts?
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Blacks, in general, are socially conservative. Same with Latinos. Duh.
 
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