Obama will observe Confederate Memorial

christiefan915 said:
I can't believe you wrote or quoted something like this. Are you tone-deaf to the bigotry of those statements? :mad: :mad:
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Well, it's a quote, from a black man, not that it makes a difference, because it's not bigotry, it's truth. You just don't like to hear the truth, it makes you uncomfortable.

If slavery never existed, how many African-Americans would there likely be today? Williams and myself, think the vast majority of those descendants of the slaves, would still be in their home country, if their ancestors hadn't been shipped to America. (Tribal Africans are not known as world travelers) So, as "bigoted" as it sounds, what is being said is very true, if not for the institution of slavery, the majority of black Americans would be mulling around the jungles of Africa, trying to catch a monkey for dinner.

What Williams it attempting to do, is make you stop looking at the past as a negative, and find something positive to carry forward. We can all dwell on the horrors of slavery, but will it change what happened? We all agree it was horrible and despicable, this is why we stopped doing it, right? So, what purpose does it serve, to continue dwelling on something dead men did centuries ago? What is the point or justification for continually revisiting the past, and casting blame on "The South" or "Southerners" as if the people who reside there today, have anything to do with the actions of the past?

The "blame" for slavery, is enough to go around. African tribal leaders literally traded their tribesmen into slavery in some cases. Indentured servitude was a very popular way for minorities and poor people to gain passage to the US, and this was indeed a mutual arrangement. The Founding Fathers, failed to address the issue, knowing the labor of slaves was required for economic success of America. All the way down the line, up to Abraham Lincoln, who strongly advocated shipping slaves and any other black people, off to some foreign land to die of Malaria. Congress repeatedly refused to address the issue, and every opportunity the Supreme Court had to review the issue, it supported and condoned the practice. Yet, some of you want to sit here in your little pity trips and guilt trips, blaming "The South" and "Southerners" for all of it! To me, as an intelligent and strong advocate of human rights, that is insulting and offending.
 
christiefan915 said:
I can't believe you wrote or quoted something like this. Are you tone-deaf to the bigotry of those statements? :mad: :mad:
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It's like I said.....you still have morons trying to justify the heinous history of slavery in the USA by any means necessary....even moronic statements by self-hating black folk. Dixie is just another clown still fighting the civil war.
 
Taichiliberal said:
It's like I said.....you still have morons trying to justify the heinous history of slavery in the USA by any means necessary....even moronic statements by self-hating black folk. Dixie is just another clown still fighting the civil war.
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This has nothing to do with "still fighting the civil war" and nothing I have said, is remotely close to that. It is evidence you are trying your best to discredit me personally, because you can't refute what I have said, because what I said is true.

I have never once "justified" a damn thing, the people who lived in America before 1865, were the ones who "justified" slavery. You want to keep putting words in my mouth, punk? Go ahead, I will just keep pointing out what a lying sack of shit you are, and how we shouldn't pay any attention to a damn thing you have to say about anything.
 
Dixie, you've spent the last three pages of this thread trying to convince people that slavery was a pretty kickass business deal. That is clearly defending the practice of slavery.

The end. Game over. Please play again.
 
ib1yysguy said:
Dixie, you've spent the last three pages of this thread trying to convince people that slavery was a pretty kickass business deal. That is clearly defending the practice of slavery.

The end. Game over. Please play again.
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Nope, I am sorry you are too retarded to comprehend the English words you read here, I wish there were something I could do to help you with that problem, but it appears hopeless. I have not once maintained slavery was a "kickass business" or anything of the sort. I correctly asserted that American economics were heavily tied to slave labor before the Civil War, and as far as "assets" went, constituted the largest 'business asset' of any business anywhere in America at the time. I'm sorry about that, I wish I could say that wasn't the case, I wish it had never happened, but that WAS how it WAS! If we can't be honest enough to admit the truth about the past, how can we overcome the mistakes of the past?

Being honest about how things were in 1860s America, having proper perspective of the mindset and social viewpoints of the day, is crucial in understanding and comprehending what took place. I am not "defending" slavery by pointing these things out, I am merely clarifying your perspective, so that you may gain enlightenment. But, some of you refuse to be enlightened, it is much easier to appease your own racist prejudices by blame all racism (including slavery) on Southerners and The South.
 
Dixie said:
This has nothing to do with "still fighting the civil war" and nothing I have said, is remotely close to that. It is evidence you are trying your best to discredit me personally, because you can't refute what I have said, because what I said is true.

I have never once "justified" a damn thing, the people who lived in America before 1865, were the ones who "justified" slavery. You want to keep putting words in my mouth, punk? Go ahead, I will just keep pointing out what a lying sack of shit you are, and how we shouldn't pay any attention to a damn thing you have to say about anything.
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Riddle me this, Batman......what's the point in all the posting of historical moot points that do NOTHING to change the FACT that slavery was wrong...no matter who was doing it? Slavery was a significant part of the economy of the Southern agricultural based states....so treating people like commodities was part of the system. THAT WAS WRONG...Period. Repeat...It was a WRONG, BAD, Immoral, debase business. Got that bunky? The "Confederacy", a 4 year deal at best, condoned and maintained this "business", so screw them. They lost the war, screw 'em. To "honor" such idealism is to buy into the schizoid mindset of slavery being justified on some level. It was to the victims then or now...so spare us all the pseudo-intellectual clap-trap. If you and your compadres post, you're at risk of honest criticism and debate. If you can't take it, just post and don't bother responding to anyone.
 
Taichiliberal said:
Riddle me this, Batman......what's the point in all the posting of historical moot points that do NOTHING to change the FACT that slavery was wrong...no matter who was doing it? Slavery was a significant part of the economy of the Southern agricultural based states....so treating people like commodities was part of the system. THAT WAS WRONG...Period. Repeat...It was a WRONG, BAD, Immoral, debase business. Got that bunky? The "Confederacy", a 4 year deal at best, condoned and maintained this "business", so screw them. They lost the war, screw 'em. To "honor" such idealism is to buy into the schizoid mindset of slavery being justified on some level. It was to the victims then or now...so spare us all the pseudo-intellectual clap-trap. If you and your compadres post, you're at risk of honest criticism and debate. If you can't take it, just post and don't bother responding to anyone.
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Here's the deal Pinhead, if there were never any slavery in the US, and the CSA was this renegade country who advocated slavery against the wishes of the US, until the US had no choice but to declare and fight a war over it.... THEN you may have a point. That was NOT the case. Slavery was made legal by the Founding Fathers, by Congress, by the Supreme Court, and by every president up to Lincoln. It was condoned, sanctioned and promoted by the United States of America in every way, shape, and form, for nearly 100 years before the Civil War. Even up to the Civil War, Lincoln was trying to work out a 'compromise' with slave owners, which would have allowed human slavery to continue into the 20th Century.

I have NEVER maintained slavery was "right" or "just" or any other misconception you might have had through your bigoted stereotyping of me. If you want to lie and make such a charge, you need to quote the fucking text of where I said it, otherwise, stop slandering me.

No one is suggesting we "honor the idealism" of slavery! This is what you have turned it into, but that isn't what Confederate Memorial Day is about. You have a grossly misinformed opinion of what the Civil War was about, and it prompts you to make such stupid and ridiculous assertions. On CMD, I choose to honor my thrice-great grandpa, and his brother, who gave their lives fighting to defend their homelands. Neither of them ever owned a slave or knew anyone who did.
 
Socrtease said:
No different that the men who rebelled against the Crown in 1776. They were traitors to the British empire. The only thing that saved them was victory. Otherwise, as Franklin observed, they would have all hung separately.
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Not the same at all. The states had a constitutional right to secede. It was actually the Union who broke with the Constitution.

U.S. Constitution "The Right To Secede" March 4, 1789

The first union of the original 13 colonies was effected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The "permanence" lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the "more perfect union" found in the Constitution.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, "It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw." A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, "The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State."

Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it. It took a bloody war to prove them wrong.

Fascinating Fact: It is significant that no Confederate leader was ever brought to trial for treason. A trial would have brought a verdict on the constitutional legality of secession. Federal prosecutors were satisfied with the verdict that had been decided in battle.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Not the same at all. The states had a constitutional right to secede. It was actually the Union who broke with the Constitution.

U.S. Constitution "The Right To Secede" March 4, 1789

The first union of the original 13 colonies was effected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The "permanence" lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the "more perfect union" found in the Constitution.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, "It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw." A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, "The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State."

Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it. It took a bloody war to prove them wrong.

Fascinating Fact: It is significant that no Confederate leader was ever brought to trial for treason. A trial would have brought a verdict on the constitutional legality of secession. Federal prosecutors were satisfied with the verdict that had been decided in battle.
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Excellent bit of historical perspective! Well done!

This supports what I have been arguing all along, that many today are simply unable to put the Civil War into proper perspective, and tend to want to apply 21st century political correct standards, as if the people of that time would have been so advanced in social and political thinking.

The US condoned and supported slavery from its inception. In 1860 America, almost unanimously, the white population did not favor integration of freed slaves into white society. The few who did favor freeing the slaves, advocated for a program of deportation and relocation. In the midst of the Civil War, a riot broke out in New York because of the draft, and free blacks living there, were brutally lynched and killed by the dozens, because they were "blamed" for being the "cause" of war.

To ignore historical facts, and pretend they didn't happen, or to get caught up in this liberal vision of noble courageous "Union" civil rights leaders, who had to put down lowly racist Southerners, is just stupid. But beyond that, it degrades the underlying problem of racism in America. The South-Hate mindset, seeks to apply all blame on a single group or region of the country, as if racism is confined to state borders. Doesn't it almost seem to absolve yourself of blame, if you can pin it on a particular group?
 
Dixie said:
Excellent bit of historical perspective! Well done!

This supports what I have been arguing all along, that many today are simply unable to put the Civil War into proper perspective, and tend to want to apply 21st century political correct standards, as if the people of that time would have been so advanced in social and political thinking.

The US condoned and supported slavery from its inception. In 1860 America, almost unanimously, the white population did not favor integration of freed slaves into white society. The few who did favor freeing the slaves, advocated for a program of deportation and relocation. In the midst of the Civil War, a riot broke out in New York because of the draft, and free blacks living there, were brutally lynched and killed by the dozens, because they were "blamed" for being the "cause" of war.

To ignore historical facts, and pretend they didn't happen, or to get caught up in this liberal vision of noble courageous "Union" civil rights leaders, who had to put down lowly racist Southerners, is just stupid. But beyond that, it degrades the underlying problem of racism in America. The South-Hate mindset, seeks to apply all blame on a single group or region of the country, as if racism is confined to state borders. Doesn't it almost seem to absolve yourself of blame, if you can pin it on a particular group?
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It was the religious activists that kept slavery at the forefront as an issue of shame and moral concern. It was an economic power grab however that made it worth going to war for. That's the concise and unvarnished truth.
 
Currently, my copy of the book, "The Historic Life of Barak Obama", is sitting on the Dresser used by Jefferson Davis while he lived in the White House of the Confederancy in Montgomery, Alabama!
 
Ice Dancer said:
It was the religious activists that kept slavery at the forefront as an issue of shame and moral concern. It was an economic power grab however that made it worth going to war for. That's the concise and unvarnished truth.
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Not all religious activists took up the banner of slavery, it was primarily the Quakers who led the charge. The Quakers were about the only white people in America, who honestly believed black slaves were equivalent to white men.

The Big Myth has been, we went to war over Slavery, which is untrue. The issue of emancipation arose well into the war, when it appeared the North might actually lose. Lincoln needed a moral issue and cause, to compel the Union citizens to support the war. When the war began, from the Southern perspective, the cause was Confederation vs. Federalism, and from the Northern perspective it was Union preservation. If you go back and read the documents of the time, issued by Congress regarding the war, you will find they articulate this perspective well. While secession states did indeed mention slavery in their secession papers, it was because slavery was a part of the larger issue of states rights, and that was obvious and clear to anyone who objectively reads the documents. One resolution from the US Congress, explicitly states in plain black and white English, this war is NOT about slavery! That is pretty compelling evidence, the war was not about slavery, I think.
 
Dixie said:
Not all religious activists took up the banner of slavery, it was primarily the Quakers who led the charge. The Quakers were about the only white people in America, who honestly believed black slaves were equivalent to white men.
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Big fucking difference between slavery and equal rights, oh deliberately obtuse one.
 
Dixie said:
Here's the deal Pinhead, if there were never any slavery in the US, and the CSA was this renegade country who advocated slavery against the wishes of the US, until the US had no choice but to declare and fight a war over it.... THEN you may have a point. That was NOT the case. Slavery was made legal by the Founding Fathers, by Congress, by the Supreme Court, and by every president up to Lincoln. It was condoned, sanctioned and promoted by the United States of America in every way, shape, and form, for nearly 100 years before the Civil War. Even up to the Civil War, Lincoln was trying to work out a 'compromise' with slave owners, which would have allowed human slavery to continue into the 20th Century.

And how does this change the FACT that it was WRONG? How does this change the FACT that the "Confederacy" advocates keeps trying to make this a minimal issue. Get this through that thick skull.....it was WRONG NO MATTER WHO DECIDED IT WAS "LEGAL". Lincoln finally got it, and that's why he put in motion the precedent for slavery to be abolished permanently later by Congress. IT'S A MOOT POINT.....The issue here is whether to give "honors" to a mindset that condoned such evil to the point of fighting a war over it.

I have NEVER maintained slavery was "right" or "just" or any other misconception you might have had through your bigoted stereotyping of me. If you want to lie and make such a charge, you need to quote the fucking text of where I said it, otherwise, stop slandering me. No one is forcing your fingers to the keys, master mind. You keep printing moot points......the north was guilty too....slavery was legal. No shit sherlock! That doesn't take away the FACT that you have a bunch of assholes who are still pissed that they lost a civil war that had they won, would have continued this heinous practice. The fact that they are southerners is just that...a matter of fact. Since no northerners are advocating such, then the fault lies with the forementioned. So if you're not trying to justify this mindset, then you're just wasting space.

No one is suggesting we "honor the idealism" of slavery! This is what you have turned it into, but that isn't what Confederate Memorial Day is about. You have a grossly misinformed opinion of what the Civil War was about, and it prompts you to make such stupid and ridiculous assertions. On CMD, I choose to honor my thrice-great grandpa, and his brother, who gave their lives fighting to defend their homelands. Neither of them ever owned a slave or knew anyone who did.
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They didn't, but there were plenty of others who did...hell, the freaking Southern economy depended upon slavery. So goody for your relatives, but for them to support some bullshit that tries to trivialize the significance of slavery is just that...self-deluding bullshit.
 
And how does this change the FACT that it was WRONG? How does this change the FACT that the "Confederacy" advocates keeps trying to make this a minimal issue. Get this through that thick skull.....it was WRONG NO MATTER WHO DECIDED IT WAS "LEGAL". Lincoln finally got it, and that's why he put in motion the precedent for slavery to be abolished permanently later by Congress. IT'S A MOOT POINT.....The issue here is whether to give "honors" to a mindset that condoned such evil to the point of fighting a war over it.
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And how about you get this through your thick skull... I have never in my life, attempted to change the fact that slavery was wrong! Where the fuck did you get that from my words? Do you comprehend what "deplorable" and "horrible" mean? Do those sound like words I would use, if I were trying to make slavery not wrong? Here's the deal, you want to assign viewpoint to me, because you aren't honest enough to debate the issues straight up, you have to create a lie and distortion of my position, so that you can appear to have the moral high ground. I have, not once, said that slavery was not wrong, that slavery was justified, or that slavery was acceptable in any way. Nothing I have ever posted, even comes remotely close to saying that. Why do you continue to insist on lying? It's not like people can't fucking read the thread!

No one is forcing your fingers to the keys, master mind. You keep printing moot points......the north was guilty too....slavery was legal. No shit sherlock! That doesn't take away the FACT that you have a bunch of assholes who are still pissed that they lost a civil war that had they won, would have continued this heinous practice. The fact that they are southerners is just that...a matter of fact. Since no northerners are advocating such, then the fault lies with the forementioned. So if you're not trying to justify this mindset, then you're just wasting space.
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Yes, the North was guilty too! That IS the point! All of this false outrage at The South and Southerners, all of this hyped up exaggerated bullshit you want to throw out there and act like it's fact, when the responsibility is ALL OF OURS TO SHARE! The only "mindset" in play here, is the bigoted and twisted mindset of people like you, who honestly believe all Southerners are racists who are pissed they lost the Civil War, and would gladly advocate slavery if given the chance! You have cast your prejudice over an entire region of the country, and people who weren't even a twinkle in their daddy's eye, when the Civil War was fought. And it would be one thing if The South were solely responsible for slavery in America, but that is simply not the case! That is the MYTH you keep trying to build, so that you can absolve yourself and your region from any of the blame, and I refuse to allow you to escape your share of the blame for slavery.

They didn't, but there were plenty of others who did...hell, the freaking Southern economy depended upon slavery. So goody for your relatives, but for them to support some bullshit that tries to trivialize the significance of slavery is just that...self-deluding bullshit.
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Actually, only 2% of the Southern population owned slaves. Not a single Confederate soldier ever owned a slave. Yes, the Southern economy, as well as the American economy was tied to King Cotton! It was our leading export crop as a nation. This was a large part of the reason slavery existed in the first place, and it was set into American law by US courts and US politicians, NOT THE CONFEDERATE STATES! If you want to "BLAME" slavery on someone, you must go to the source, the people who made slavery legal in America for a century before the CSA was even thought of.

No one is trying to "trivialize" slavery, it was horrible and despicable, but being totally dishonest about why it existed and who advocated for it, is not going to make it any less horrible.
 
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