"Preventative Detention"?

I agree if we are talking about domestic terrorists here, but I'm under the impression this is about guys we have at Gitmo.

I got the impression that it could be whomever the government decides might be a terrorist which could be anyone who runs afoul of the current administration.

We will release them just as we release other prisoners of war: after it is over and back to their native countries.

The war on terrorism won't end. How can it? Will we ever know that we have killed the last terrorist so that we win? No, we won't. We can't know that they are not hiding their heads in the sand and waiting for us to drop our guards.

If that is the determination of when these people are allowed to go home, then they are doomed to spend the rest of their lives in Guantanamo.

Immie
 
I know, I know...but change does take time and I can only continue to hope.
 
I asked "So as long as they are not american citizens its ok to hold people against their will for extended periods of time based on little or no evidence?" and you answered "We will release them just as we release other prisoners of war: after it is over and back to their native countries.".

No you did not answer the question. As long as they are not american citizens its ok to hold people against their will for extended periods of time based on little or no evidence?

The question does not ask when or where they will be released.
They're prisoners of war, and as such should be held by the country that captured them and not released until the war is over. Duh.
 
....

If that is the determination of when these people are allowed to go home, then they are doomed to spend the rest of their lives in Guantanamo.

Immie

They chose to be commit acts of war against the US in an ill defined war- tough shit for them. *shrug*
 
They're prisoners of war, and as such should be held by the country that captured them and not released until the war is over. Duh.
YOu are aware that we housed thousands of German POW's on our soil, just up the road from where I am right now as a matter of fact, here in the US?
 
SM, have you decided yet if they're prisoners of war or enemy combatants? Cause you've taken both positions (and holding mutually exclusive viewpoints means you're insane, by the way).

If they're prisoners of war we can hold them until the ward is over, but we have to abide by the geneva conventions. You keep saying they're prisoners of war, which means your buddy Bush broke international law. That's called a "war crime."
 
SM, have you decided yet if they're prisoners of war or enemy combatants? Cause you've taken both positions (and holding mutually exclusive viewpoints means you're insane, by the way).

If they're prisoners of war we can hold them until the ward is over, but we have to abide by the geneva conventions. You keep saying they're prisoners of war, which means your buddy Bush broke international law. That's called a "war crime."
Focussing on the ones whose status is established (ie: they were captured in a firefight, or in circumstances that prove they were active terrorists) the detainees are classified as non-uniformed enemy combatants to be specific. They do not fight for a particular flag, nor do they swear allegiance to nor wear the military uniform of a functioning government.

Technically under the Geneva Convention and other recognized international law, we can summarily execute them if we want to. They do not fall under the protections of the Geneva Convention with respect to treatment of POWs. If we were to take the high road and treast them as POWs, that would be to our credit. Treating them with the same rights as an indicted criminal should not even be on the table.

As for the ones whose status as combatants have not been adequately determined, we are in the wrong for the way we are handling it. Since they were captured in a defined combat zone, they also do not warrant the rights of civilian jurisprudence. However, we should have set up a military tribunal BEFORE sending them to Guantanamo, in Iraq and Afghanistan, whose purpose would be to examine any evidence against a detainee, and determine within a few days of their capture whether they should be classified as enemy combatants, or classified as a domestic (as in domestic to Iraq or Afghanistan) criminal to be handed over to the local government, or be turned loose in absence of acceptable evidence. That is the established procedure for handling captured civilians in a combat zone. We have failed to follow our own guidelines in that particular manner. Adding mistreatment to the mix just makes our hands dirtier.
 
SM, have you decided yet if they're prisoners of war or enemy combatants? Cause you've taken both positions (and holding mutually exclusive viewpoints means you're insane, by the way).

If they're prisoners of war we can hold them until the ward is over, but we have to abide by the geneva conventions. You keep saying they're prisoners of war, which means your buddy Bush broke international law. That's called a "war crime."
You must be retarded so I'll put it to you as simply as possible:

In a war there can be legitimate, Geneva Convention abiding "soldiers". An example of that would be me.

There can also be douchebags of the battlefield, who don't follow the rules. These are called "enemy combatants". An example of that would be you.

Take either of us prisoner and we become "prisoners of war".

I get put in one prison and must be treated per the rules that I myself have followed. They get to feed me, make me stand "at ease" and ask me my name, rank and serial number.

You get demoted to a different prison, or section of a prison. Let's call that "Retard Academy".

In Retard Academy, legitimate, law abiding CIA officers get to pour water down your nose and ask you questions about what you know about future douchebag operations.
 
They chose to be commit acts of war against the US in an ill defined war- tough shit for them. *shrug*

I would not have a problem with your statement if I believed that every detainee had actually chosen to commit acts of war against the US rather than the very distinct possibility that many were doing absolutely nothing except defending their homeland. If these were not simply men pulled off the streets of Baghdad, I would not feel the way I do. If they were known terrorists then I would be okay with it.

Immie
 
I would not have a problem with your statement if I believed that every detainee had actually chosen to commit acts of war against the US rather than the very distinct possibility that many were doing absolutely nothing except defending their homeland. If these were not simply men pulled off the streets of Baghdad, I would not feel the way I do. If they were known terrorists then I would be okay with it.

Immie
Try being a little more intellectually honest about the situation. No one was "simply pulled off the streets of Bagdad". There are basically two types of detainees. The first were captured while actively engaging our troops or Iraqi police. They are by far the larger group.

The second were men captured in raids against places suspected of being terrorist/insurrection strongholds or safe houses. These men should have been held separately, investigated by military tribunal, and either released, handed over to Iraqi authority, or kept as enemy combatants as determined by evidence. We neglected that process. Then when they were transferred to Guantanamo they were handed over to the CIA - a non-military agency - for interrogation, thus essentially releasing them from military authority. Because they screwed that up, it becomes a civilian matter, with all the associated political controversy. Had the military higher ups done their job, those who were transferred to to Guantanamo would have been already classified according to evidence as enemy combatants, in which case the only issue would be using torture as a means to gaining intel. The question of holding people without trial would be moot because their status would already have been determined through military rules of evidence.

As for "simply defending their homes" - that is a feel-good boogie. If they were engaged in activity to harm our troops, they are enemy combatants by definition. I no more agree with the invasion and occupation of Iraq than anyone. But the fact is we are there, and there are people trying to kill our people. Whether our purpose for invading and occupying another country is justifiable or not, there will be people who will try to defend their homes. People intending our troops harm cannot reasonably be ignored or released because we "agree" with the principle of their motivation.
 
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Try being a little more intellectually honest about the situation. No one was "simply pulled off the streets of Bagdad". There are basically two types of detainees. The first were captured while actively engaging our troops or Iraqi police. They are by far the larger group.

The second were men captured in raids against places suspected of being terrorist/insurrection strongholds or safe houses. These men should have been held separately, investigated by military tribunal, and either released, handed over to Iraqi authority, or kept as enemy combatants as determined by evidence. We neglected that process. Then when they were transferred to Guantanamo they were handed over to the CIA - a non-military agency - for interrogation, thus essentially releasing them from military authority. Because they screwed that up, it becomes a civilian matter, with all the associated political controversy. Had the military higher ups done their job, those who were transferred to to Guantanamo would have been already classified according to evidence as enemy combatants, in which case the only issue would be using torture as a means to gaining intel. The question of holding people without trial would be moot because their status would already have been determined through military rules of evidence.

As for "simply defending their homes" - that is a feel-good boogie. If they were engaged in activity to harm our troops, they are enemy combatants by definition. I no more agree with the invasion and occupation of Iraq than anyone. But the fact is we are there, and there are people trying to kill our people. Whether our purpose for invading and occupying another country is justifiable or not, there will be people who will try to defend their homes. People intending our troops harm cannot reasonably be ignored or released because we "agree" with the principle of their motivation.

When you can prove to me that there are no detainees that were simply pulled off the streets of Baghdad, then maybe you have a point. No one was simply pulled of the streets of Baghdad heh? Did Uncle George tell you that? Did Uncle Dick tell you these guys were all planning the next 9/11 attack?

I quit believing everything the Bush Admin told me back about the time the Halliburton scandal broke. So you will just have to forgive me for not taking their word for it that everyone they have detained is a terrorist or even out to do our soldiers harm.

Oh and in reference to your statement about men captured in raids against places suspected of being terrorist/insurrection strongholds or safe houses, well, that defines every single square inch of Iraq and Afghanistan so again you'll have to forgive me for not taking the word of the men and women of the Bush Administration.

You'll also have to forgive me for thinking that America is morally superior to the terrorist bastards and that we should act like it. Forgive me for having that foolish thought in my head as I always believed it when I was growing up and it is not something that I am willing to let go of easily.

In all seriousness, I do not believe the people that we placed into the highest offices of our land a little more than eight years ago. Nor have the people that we have elected to follow them done anything at all to change or earn my trust back. So, I do not believe them when they tell me that all the detainees are enemy combatants who were out to do our soldiers harm. And I am deeply saddened by the picture that this whole thing has shown us of our country.

Believe me, it would make me feel a hell of a lot better if I actually believed you that those detainees were terrorists.

Immie
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.html?_r=3&emc=eta1

Looks like another example of more of the same, plus the next step to totalitarianism. Obama has consistently not only reneged on his promises to change government, but also consistently adds to the unconstitutional corruption of his predecessor. He kept the FISA bill in place and added to its powers; actively lied and covered evidence of deliberate governmental interference with the banking system, and now wants to do with U.S. citizens what Bush did with suspected terrorist and combatants. Some friggin "change" we have here.

different puppet...same strings
 
different puppet...same strings

HEY, YOU'RE BACK!!!!! :party:

Were you able to find a single site, from a single State, that supports your feeling that the employee pays for his own Unemployment Insurance??

I mean; you did take off, sort of quickly.
 
When you can prove to me that there are no detainees that were simply pulled off the streets of Baghdad, then maybe you have a point. No one was simply pulled of the streets of Baghdad heh? Did Uncle George tell you that? Did Uncle Dick tell you these guys were all planning the next 9/11 attack?

I quit believing everything the Bush Admin told me back about the time the Halliburton scandal broke. So you will just have to forgive me for not taking their word for it that everyone they have detained is a terrorist or even out to do our soldiers harm.

Oh and in reference to your statement about men captured in raids against places suspected of being terrorist/insurrection strongholds or safe houses, well, that defines every single square inch of Iraq and Afghanistan so again you'll have to forgive me for not taking the word of the men and women of the Bush Administration.

You'll also have to forgive me for thinking that America is morally superior to the terrorist bastards and that we should act like it. Forgive me for having that foolish thought in my head as I always believed it when I was growing up and it is not something that I am willing to let go of easily.

In all seriousness, I do not believe the people that we placed into the highest offices of our land a little more than eight years ago. Nor have the people that we have elected to follow them done anything at all to change or earn my trust back. So, I do not believe them when they tell me that all the detainees are enemy combatants who were out to do our soldiers harm. And I am deeply saddened by the picture that this whole thing has shown us of our country.

Believe me, it would make me feel a hell of a lot better if I actually believed you that those detainees were terrorists.

Immie
I did not say all of them were terrorists. Read more carefully.

You are the one who has made the claim that men were "just taken off the streets of Bagdad". Since you made the claim, you back it up with a report or other intelligence showing you have reasons for your belief. Telling me to disprove your (as yet) unsupported claim is disingenuous at best.

However, we are both aware of multiple reports of our military conducting raids on houses and taking people into custody during those raids. That fucker Kerry even referred to the actions as "terrorizing" the people of Bagdad.

The people taken into custody during those raids are the ones whose status is questionable. While there was undoubtedly some kind of intel involved in each raid (we don't have the manpower to be conducting raids at random) the reliability of the intel, and the status of every person taken into custody during a raid is not absolute. It was those people who should have been investigated under military tribunal. Since they were not, their status is unclear, and leads to the political fiasco of holding people without trial indefinitely. Had we followed our own guidelines for handling civilians captured in a combat zone, the only issue would be whether torture was a proper means of interrogation.
 
I did not say all of them were terrorists. Read more carefully.

You are the one who has made the claim that men were "just taken off the streets of Bagdad". Since you made the claim, you back it up with a report or other intelligence showing you have reasons for your belief. Telling me to disprove your (as yet) unsupported claim is disingenuous at best.

However, we are both aware of multiple reports of our military conducting raids on houses and taking people into custody during those raids. That fucker Kerry even referred to the actions as "terrorizing" the people of Bagdad.

The people taken into custody during those raids are the ones whose status is questionable. While there was undoubtedly some kind of intel involved in each raid (we don't have the manpower to be conducting raids at random) the reliability of the intel, and the status of every person taken into custody during a raid is not absolute. It was those people who should have been investigated under military tribunal. Since they were not, their status is unclear, and leads to the political fiasco of holding people without trial indefinitely. Had we followed our own guidelines for handling civilians captured in a combat zone, the only issue would be whether torture was a proper means of interrogation.

I think you just admitted to exactly what I said, so maybe I don't have to prove anything.

I also said that if you could convince me that there were no people that were simply pulled off the streets, you would have a point. I didn't ask you to prove anything or to disprove my statements. It is highly unlikely that you will be able to do that. You would have to prove to me that the people in power are honest in order to do that and I don't see that happening at all.

As for me proving that there were people simply pulled off the streets, unfortunately, I do not have that high of a security clearance so to get to those carefully guarded secrets would be impossible for me. This whole argument goes to a matter of integrity... the integrity of the people in our government and quite frankly, I don't think they have any integrity left.

I completely agree with your last paragraph. It is those people that I am concerned about.

Immie
 
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