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midcan5

Member
I thought this interesting as it touches on a subject that just plain bewilders me, how can any person of faith be a libertarian? They seem so contradictory, yet humans have this wonderful ability to place in separate compartments of their head concepts that clash.

“At roughly the same time, my coursework in economics exposed me to free-market thought. I was completely sold. Adam Smith. Friedman. Hayek. The virtues of the invisible hand excited me as much as my growing Christian commitment.

Laissez faire was nearly a second conversion.”

Evangelicals and Economics: Reflections of a Conservative Protestant; By Hunter Baker
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1318
 
I thought this interesting as it touches on a subject that just plain bewilders me, how can any person of faith be a libertarian? They seem so contradictory, yet humans have this wonderful ability to place in separate compartments of their head concepts that clash.

WTF are you babbling about? it makes no sense. :confused:
 
I thought this interesting as it touches on a subject that just plain bewilders me, how can any person of faith be a libertarian? They seem so contradictory, yet humans have this wonderful ability to place in separate compartments of their head concepts that clash.

“At roughly the same time, my coursework in economics exposed me to free-market thought. I was completely sold. Adam Smith. Friedman. Hayek. The virtues of the invisible hand excited me as much as my growing Christian commitment.

Laissez faire was nearly a second conversion.”

Evangelicals and Economics: Reflections of a Conservative Protestant; By Hunter Baker
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=1318
It's actually quite simple how a person of faith can also believe in the capitalist market system of economics. Freedom is where you find it, and that includes economic freedom.

Only those who do not understand the faith have come to the erroneous conclusion that capitalism is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. The idea that letting/demanding the state take on our individual responsibility towards our neighbors is part of Christianity is an idea born of agnostic liberalism as an argument against free capitalists, the majority of whom also happen to be religious. Using the state to meet the obligation of assisting the less fortunate is as far away from the teaching of Christ as is the exercise of greed to the detriment of others.

Another false assumption from those who believe capitalism is contrary to faith is the idea that capitalism automatically equates to greed. Certainly the greedy will support a system that gives them free reign to engage in their desire for amassing material wealth. However, greed is relative. Are those who abuse the government assistance programs, deliberately minimizing their efforts in employment to keep themselves on assistance, buying TVs I cannot afford while living in subsidized housing and buying food I cannot afford with food stamps any less greedy (ie: wanting that which is not earned) than those whom the liberals decry?

In no way does everyone who supports a free economic system subscribe to personal greed. That is another lie told by the socialists to defend their failed system of wealth redistribution. For every business owner/manager/CEO who cheats the workers to gain further wealth there are 1000 honest businessmen who treat their workers as well as circumstances allow, who encourage good work with advancement and bonuses and discourage a passive or lazy work ethic with stagnation and layoffs.

The bottom line is free capitalism is NOT antithetical to the principles of Christianity. One does not HAVE to be greedy to be a capitalist. In fact successful capitalism more often allows a higher level of generosity than does any regulated economy. And the moral code of assistance to ones' neighbor is an individual obligation put on us by Christ. The state cannot alleviate us of that obligation, and more often than not interfere with our ability to meet that obligation in the attempts of the liberals or socialists to put the burden on the state.
 
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It's actually quite simple how a person of faith can also believe in the capitalist market system of economics. Freedom is where you find it, and that includes economic freedom....

I think you prove my original contention splendidly.

You define ideologies so they fit your perspective. Libertarian (L) thought is about the self and thinking only of the self is not Christ-like. L is not capitalism either. All systems of thought are constructions and L has clear ideas that if we were to look for an analogy, would be closer to social Darwinism used in the pejorative or dog eat dog sense.

I am just sharing the fact this conservative unlike most recognizes the real world as opposed to the imaginary.

'In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus proclaims that how you treat the hungry, the thirsty, the sick and other "least of these," is how you treat Jesus himself. And if you fail to help the "least of these," Jesus promises, he will send you to Hell.' The argument then becomes about what ought you to do.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi
 
I think you prove my original contention splendidly.

You define ideologies so they fit your perspective. Libertarian (L) thought is about the self and thinking only of the self is not Christ-like. L is not capitalism either. All systems of thought are constructions and L has clear ideas that if we were to look for an analogy, would be closer to social Darwinism used in the pejorative or dog eat dog sense.

I am just sharing the fact this conservative unlike most recognizes the real world as opposed to the imaginary.

'In Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus proclaims that how you treat the hungry, the thirsty, the sick and other "least of these," is how you treat Jesus himself. And if you fail to help the "least of these," Jesus promises, he will send you to Hell.' The argument then becomes about what ought you to do.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Gandhi
How did I "prove" your original contention? Did you simply stop reading after the first sentence? Or are you simply replying only to my first sentence since you cannot refute the rest?

Libertarians are not simply about "self and self only" as you claim. What they ARE about is minimal government (not none, but minimal) interference with the way the individual reacts to economic circumstances and interacts with others.

There IS no argument about "what you ought to do" to follow the teachings of Christ. As an individual, you assist others to the best of your ability. It is a simple concept. Only those who do not understand it make it complex, and deride the individualism of libertarians as somehow not consistent with that basic command.

As stated before, sharing ones wealth with the less fortunate is not in any way antithetical to believing in and engaging in a capitalist economy. What one does with any wealth derived from engaging in capitalism is up to the individual - that is freedom. It is one of the principles of true liberty. That most who derive wealth from engaging in capitalism choose to share it with less fortunate is following the teachings of Christ. That some choose NOT to share is ALSO part of the total scope of Christianity (ie: the chaff that will be gathered and burned).

At the other end of the spectrum, and what those who do not understand the basic principle of Christ's command to assist thy neighbor, is the idea that the state is needed to assure such assistance takes place. The problem with that concept is it takes away the personal CHOICE (ie: liberty) to use personal wealth for assistance. If one is not free to CHOOSE, personally and daily, to follow the commandments and teachings of Christ, then the resulting forced sharing, even if it actually worked (which it does not as history proves again and again) is not a part of Christianity. The idea that one is engaging in Christian principles by using their power of franchise to support the ideal of taking from others to give to the needy is flat out antithetical to what Christ actually taught us. You can NOT discharge your Christian duty by placing your obligation on the State.
 
Because conservative policies maximize freedom. Don't you like freedom?

Conservatives maximize freedom! WAHAHAHHAHAH You've been reading 1984 again haven't you? LOL

Conservatives are only for freedom until some one actually practices it. Then the rest of us have to listen to them bitch and moan about it.
 
Conservatives maximize freedom! WAHAHAHHAHAH You've been reading 1984 again haven't you? LOL

Conservatives are only for freedom until some one actually practices it. Then the rest of us have to listen to them bitch and moan about it.

People always have the right to bitch and moan. According to the Constitution, your right to bitch and moan can not be abrogated by the government. Conservatives believe in smaller government, and less government always means more freedom.

Freedom involves responsibility. Surely we can all agree, freedom should not mean the ability to do whatever your heart's desire, we can't just all go running around naked and do whatever we please, that's complete anarchy. So, freedom comes with responsibility and consequence for not acting responsibly. This is where the liberal becomes involved... Liberals want freedoms without responsibility or consequence, and if freedom involves responsibility, they shouldn't have to adhere to it. So they turn to government to mandate these things, to control these 'freedoms' they want to have without consequence.

Conservatives, for the most part, believe in personal responsibility, and social democracy. If our state or local governments want to institute social changes, there is a means by which that is done, and it involves public debate and discourse. After which, people vote for what they want. It is never left to the purview of the Federal Government or the Supreme Court. If some state or local action is violating some individual's enumerated rights in the Constitution, the Supreme Court can be petitioned, and there is a system in place for this. Conservatives do not restrict any American's freedom, rights, or ability, to use the tools given by the system to advocate change.

The issue of "Gay Marriage" has been proposed on numerous state ballots, and it has met with overwhelming opposition by the people. Time and time again, it is no fluke, America doesn't want or desire "Gay Marriage" or anything associated with redefining traditional marriage. If anything, they mostly lean toward a push to define marriage as being between man and woman as a Constitutional Amendment. Conservatives have never protested Gay Marriage initiatives being put before the people, nor the abortion issue, for that matter. Let the people decide.... government OF the PEOPLE...

Liberals don't care about the will of the people, they will point almost immediately to 'slavery' or 'civil rights' and claim the moral high ground. The Issue becomes so important, they feel they can suspend democracy and rule it by judicial fiat. The courts are used to far overstep their bounds in restricting and limiting our freedoms, and it continues to happen in radical manner. Liberals have learned they can implement their agenda through the courts, and completely overrule the will of the people.
 
The issue of "Gay Marriage" has been proposed on numerous state ballots, and it has met with overwhelming opposition by the people. Time and time again, it is no fluke, America doesn't want or desire "Gay Marriage" or anything associated with redefining traditional marriage. If anything, they mostly lean toward a push to define marriage as being between man and woman as a Constitutional Amendment. Conservatives have never protested Gay Marriage initiatives being put before the people, nor the abortion issue, for that matter. Let the people decide.... government OF the PEOPLE...
.

Connecticut voters voted in favor of gay marriage, they voted no on question 1 which if yes prevailed, would have triggered a state convention on the topic to repeal gay marriage here. However no won, so we don't have to deal with it.

I can see points on both sides especially on gay marriage and abortion, but i think everyone should be respectful of everyone's view points. I think states should decide with gay marriage and that's what their doing.

I don't think that marriage should dictate what rights people get though however and their are many more rights afforded to hetero's who are married than those in a civil partnership. I think that's where the problem comes in if you made gave gays the same rights as those who get married, and called it partnered i don't think you'd see such the backlashing you are seeing now.

and it totally is a civil rights issue, its like ellen said, the government with civil unions is basically saying you can sit there.... just not there.
 
Because conservative policies maximize freedom. Don't you like freedom?

Conservatives love freedom but:

They want to tell people who they can marry
they want to control your bedroom activities
They want to keep medicine away from you
They want to stop scientific investigation
They want to stop you from controlling your own life
They want to stop you from forming a union
They want to teach their religion in schools
They want to invade other countries to make them like them
and on and on....

They wouldn't know freedom if they fell over over it.
 
Conservatives love freedom but:

...
They want to keep medicine away from you
....
You liberals want universal health care. They have that in Canada, Great Britain and Germany, and it's rationed, so when a rich guy needs a cure he flies to the US for treatment.

Why do you want to ration heath care? Why do you want to kill the poor?
 
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Conservatives love freedom but:

They want to tell people who they can marry
they want to control your bedroom activities
They want to keep medicine away from you
They want to stop scientific investigation
They want to stop you from controlling your own life
They want to stop you from forming a union
They want to teach their religion in schools
They want to invade other countries to make them like them
and on and on....

They wouldn't know freedom if they fell over over it.
LOL. What a list of pure unadulterated bullshit.

Marriage: first of all, there have always been, and always will be limitations on who people are allowed to marry. Or do you propose allowing men to marry their own daughters? Of course you don't want that kind of thing going on. But you pull this kind of broad label because you have nothing else but lies to support your arguments.

Also, marriage was a RELIGIOUS institution LONG before there was anything even remotely resembling modern government. Religions have every right to define their own institutions, while government has ZERO business telling religion what they must accept.


Care to name exactly what bedroom activities are being targeted by those you call conservatives? (And try to remember your target was libertarians, whom you label as conservative) You want to have a dick up your ass, go right ahead. Want to do it to a cat, don't let the SPCA know, but most conservatives don't give a crap what you do.

Let me guess which "medicine" conservative don;t want people to have. Has to do with killing unborn children, doesn't it? You cannot be HONEST and name the specific, can you? Gotta make it seem like a big huge, broad scope infringement. Liar.

Most of the rest of your list is the same. Lies based on single concepts which involve a larger controversial issue.

Stop people from forming a union? Not on your life. You have the first amendment protecting your right to associate and assemble as you see fit. What we oppose is using the law to give your assembly special protections, resulting in undue authority.

Teaching religion in the classrooms? How is that "anti-freedom"? Is there a call for teaching religion INSTEAD of the current curriculum, or is it in addition to the current curriculum? Which is the more restrictive (ie: anti-freedom): a policy that allows full discourse of ideas, even those that cannot be defined as valid science, or a policy that limits the discourse to only those ideas approved of by the State?

Invading other countries: shall we go through history and examine who is responsible for more unnecessary foreign warfare?

In short your arguments are completely false, and rather pitifully so.


BTW: those who claim the modern title of "conservative" in the United States are, in actuality, of the liberal philosophy that formed this nation. Mindless driveling shitheaps such as yourself have corrupted the term liberal so badly there is no alternative left but for us to label ourselves differently.
 
Libertarians are not simply about "self and self only" as you claim. What they ARE about is minimal government (not none, but minimal) interference with the way the individual reacts to economic circumstances and interacts with others.

WHY are they for it? That dream of theirs is, in actuality, a hellhole. We'd all be far worse off if left by society to the predators of the market. The fact is, it's all just utopian nonsense. If you leave people to their own devices they don't just hold hands, sing, and share, like the communists though. And same thing for the libertarians - leave people to their own devices, and you simply have a hellhole, not a happy utopia where blacks children get shot for stealing a candybar and white libertarians horde up in their holes while they talk about their fanciful theories online.
 
At the other end of the spectrum, and what those who do not understand the basic principle of Christ's command to assist thy neighbor, is the idea that the state is needed to assure such assistance takes place. The problem with that concept is it takes away the personal CHOICE (ie: liberty) to use personal wealth for assistance. If one is not free to CHOOSE, personally and daily, to follow the commandments and teachings of Christ, then the resulting forced sharing, even if it actually worked (which it does not as history proves again and again) is not a part of Christianity. The idea that one is engaging in Christian principles by using their power of franchise to support the ideal of taking from others to give to the needy is flat out antithetical to what Christ actually taught us. You can NOT discharge your Christian duty by placing your obligation on the State.

This is not an either or, it is instead a way of life. When we vote we do so as members of a 'state,' we together decide the values that we want our society to have. Society is essential and we make that society through our choices and values. Helping each other is not exclusive to individuals alone, as individuals alone usual care only about self interest. We can have in America, a society like FDR, Lincoln or LBJ or we can a society like Hoover, Reagan, or Bush Jr.. No one is taking from anyone, we are all making a decision on what sort of society we want. Seems right now most Americans want a society different from the past eight years or more even.



"... legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right." Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to James Madison 1785

"What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
 
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