America is losing its religion — and the effects will be long-lasting

[ThatOwlWoman]

Christianity is losing favor because there are so many bad ambassadors for Christianity.

Rightwing evangelicals worshipping Donald Trumpf telegraphs to everyone else that flavor of evangelicalism is hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

Everyone admires the faith of Jimmy and Roslyn Carter because it is a bedrock of humility, social justice, morality.

Christianity needs good ambassadors. It does not need to worry about what percentage of the nation it is.

Hear, hear.

Your point about the Carters is the perfect illustration of why Xtianity is dying in this country at the hands of the evangelicals. They prefer a faux "strong man" like #TRE45ON, who is as much a Christian as I am a Corvette. They see true Christians like the Carters as weak and puny. It's much the same way that the Romans at first saw Christ -- He was weak and puny compared to their robust, war-like, lusty gods and goddesses.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Cultural wars don't end with changed hearts, Owl.

They end in partition [my preferred solution],
genocide [hopefully nobody's preferred solution],
or they don't end at all.

Political polarization may diminish as politics evolve.
Cultural polarization is forever from what history tells us.

People either separate from one another, get wiped out, or keep fighting forever.

Other than all the issues with the Muslim refugees/immigrants, Europe seems to have suffered few ill effects from becoming more secular.

Do you see the United States separating and becoming more than one country?

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Organized Religion

Yep. People in groups are far more dangerous than individuals.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Hear, hear.
They prefer a faux "strong man" like #TRE45ON, who is as much a Christian as I am a Corvette.

Owl isn't lying.
I've actually got a Corvette--a fully restored 1962--
but Miss Owl remains out of my reach.
I could probably attract Arby with the car, but I pass on that.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

There are perfectly logical and even self interest reason to be good to others


We need to teach all humans those reasons


No matter what their beliefs are


I love me some Carlin

Agreed. Respect for others is part of unity. Obviously not everyone on JPP believes this to be true.

George Carlin was great. Like South Park, nothing was sacred and I liked that. Even atheist LWLs have sacred cows and watching them clutch their pearls is as much fun as watching the RWNJs clutch theirs.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I would be happy with no Christians.

Of course you would. You're part of the Asshat Legion which hates everyone.

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Other than all the issues with the Muslim refugees/immigrants, Europe seems to have suffered few ill effects from becoming more secular.

Do you see the United States separating and becoming more than one country?

I'm personally a Catholic by ethnicity, not faith. I turned to secular humanism by high school age.
I believe the New Testament has some good advice in it, but that advice isn't apparently "over" with Christians.

My dream is Middle American remaining "United" to their hearts' content,
while the Northeast becomes The Atlantic States of America
and the West Coast [plus Hawaii but probably not Alaska] become/becomes The Pacific States of America.

That's a fantasy. I've no expectations of it happening in my lifetime.
I do believe, however, we'd all get along much better as neighbors and trading partners who aren't writing one another's laws and tax codes.
Because Owl, it takes staggering imagination to see any compatibility between the factions in our cultural divide.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Christianity is losing favor because there are so many bad ambassadors for Christianity.

Rightwing evangelicals worshipping Donald Trumpf telegraphs to everyone else that flavor of evangelicalism is hypocritical and morally bankrupt.

Everyone admires the faith of Jimmy and Roslyn Carter because it is a bedrock of humility, social justice, morality.

Christianity needs good ambassadors. It does not need to worry about what percentage of the nation it is.

Most respectful people, regardless of religious beliefs, are too busy with their own lives to worry about telling others how to live. Religious extremism is tied to political extremism since both seek to dominate and impose their beliefs onto others.

The "bad ambassadors" are those kinds of people. We see those kinds of people all over JPP and in protests where violence is involved. It's not a Christian thing per se, but there are certainly a lot of self-labeled Christians spreading hate and authoritarianism both on JPP and in Washington DC.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I once struggled with the religion thing. Bombarded as we are with the messages that we should believe in this story. But that's all it is, really. Oh, and just to make sure you believe, part of the story is that horrible things will happen to you if you don't believe. Carlin got it right.

I was afraid to be true to my disbelief for a long time. Gradually, I decided that it was OK. Finally, I was free of the guilt of doubting it. And the fear. Free to say out loud what I suspected for a long time. That we really do not know how we got here.

And I can tell you honestly, after many many years of disbelief, that there is a perfectly good life without that heavy ominous weight. It is a freedom to accept that this life is the only one we will know, that after it is done one simply ceases to exist. Just like any other animal.

Because that's all we really are.

Lately, Christianity has become more and more at odds with science and reality. It has become a greater and greater leap of faith to follow. So I am not surprised to see people running from it. Now, I know that many who no longer belong to organized religion still hold their beliefs. That is their right. It is not for me or any person to say what others should believe. And that is exactly why churches are going out of fashion.

Disagreed on several points. The main one being that the world isn't Black & White. One doesn't have to be a foaming-at-the-mouth "Christian" or a staunch, religion-hating atheist.

There's religious dogma, militant atheism and a panoply of spiritual beliefs in between. Science covers the Natural Universe. Where science conflicts with religious dogma, then science is correct because it's provable.

OTOH, science doesn't cover everything and that is the realm of faith. An atheist who declares that doesn't exist is an example of a person going on faith, not science.

STFU!

There's a JPP Christian!

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Religious extremism is tied to political extremism since both seek to dominate and impose their beliefs onto others.

They're just barely related.
Religious extremism is exclusive to the cultural war.
Political extremism is a made up concept that each side of the cultural war attributes to the other.

The entirety of sanity, intellectualism, and morality combined are regarded as political extremism to you, Oom,
so your opinion must be considered with that in mind.

Keep seeking that "middle" that exists only in your imagination, Oom.
What a shame. The Dutch people in the Netherlands seem to be smart.

 

[moon]

There will soon be a Latino majority in America- and Latinos tend to be Roman Catholic. Biden is a Roman Catholic and I wonder if religion played a large part in his election. Certainly, crazed Evangelicals supported El Trumpo- so we may well see a future wherein party-lines/religious -lines come to be much the same thing. Very, very strange under a Constitution which separates church and state.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I'm personally a Catholic by ethnicity, not faith. I turned to secular humanism by high school age.
I believe the New Testament has some good advice in it, but that advice isn't apparently "over" with Christians.

My dream is Middle American remaining "United" to their hearts' content,
while the Northeast becomes The Atlantic States of America
and the West Coast [plus Hawaii but probably not Alaska] become/becomes The Pacific States of America.

That's a fantasy. I've no expectations of it happening in my lifetime.
I do believe, however, we'd all get along much better as neighbors and trading partners who aren't writing one another's laws and tax codes.
Because Owl, it takes staggering imagination to see any compatibility between the factions in our cultural divide.

I know I'm having trouble seeing that myself.

 

[dukkha]

generalized hedonism and debauchery of US society does not make for a religious mindset.

we dont even look for a guide, we just fuck, sleep, eat and do dope/
there is little good will towards our fellow Americans -we hate each other if not the same tribe

 

[Dutch Uncle]

They're just barely related.
Religious extremism is exclusive to the cultural war.
Political extremism is a made up concept that each side of the cultural war attributes to the other.

The entirety of sanity, intellectualism, and morality combined are regarded as political extremism to you, Oom,
so your opinion must be considered with that in mind.

Keep seeking that "middle" that exists only in your imagination, Oom.
What a shame. The Dutch people in the Netherlands seem to be smart.

The same is people who are so extreme they fail to see the range of humanity. They only see the world in black & white, not living color.

Sad.

 

[Jarod]

Where did you get your 0.08% figure for birth rate from? This source almost doubles that number. BTW, Japan's birth rate is roughly the same as Europe's, at 1.42%. They are not Christian or post-Christian.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Fertility_statistics

0.8, false!

 

[NiftyNiblick]

They only see the world in black & white, not living color. Sad.

Got it. We see the world as a European art film.
In today's digital world, obviously, they're actually shot in color and then they just click the gray scale function.
That's what I do when the colors become tasteless.

 

[Cypress]

There have been "bad ambassadors" since Eve tempted Adam.

But you fucks try to say all Evangelicals worship Trump? You're a fucking liar. You don't think there are liberal Evangelicals? Since you're only projecting the "talking points" and injecting your own your stupidity, there ARE liberals who attend the church I am a member of. And mine isn't the only one.

Yep, you admire Carter's faith, yet demoralize Pence for his. You are a fucking hypocrite, not to mention a fucking ignorant one.

You are one of the bad ambassadors for Christianity because you are foul mouthed, you lie, you slander.

Jimmy Carter, my mother, my cousin are good ambassadors for Christianity. I do not mind Pence's faith as long as he does not pass laws forcing women to give birth or legislating the Old Testament.

You need to write a response to what I actually wrote, not what you wish I wrote.
I am on public record noting that there are liberal strains of evangelicalism, including the traditionally black Baptist churches. I have the posts to prove I made that point long before you did.

What I wrote was: that "that strain" of evangelicalism has discredited itself- aka, the evangelical conservatives who prostrate themselves and worship the noted Orange-tinted atheist Donald Trump.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Look at post-Christian Europe with their 0.8 reproduction rate. The secularists WANT those kind of statistics even though it spells demographic suicide. Centuries after Charles Martel held off the Muslim hordes Europe is on track to be a Muslim majority.

That’s another thing the progressives want: they want demographic change. They want white people *especially* white Christians to die off and be replaced with people ‘of color’. I’m not exactly sure they expect will happen after that and I’m confident they don’t think that far ahead.

Maybe one of them can explain the End Game because I can’t.

Where did you get your 0.08% figure for birth rate from? This source almost doubles that number. BTW, Japan's birth rate is roughly the same as Europe's, at 1.42%. They are not Christian or post-Christian.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Fertility_statistics

Agreed on the birth rate facts. Opie is always short on facts and long on opinion, so facts are appreciated.

That said, I think you are missing the underlying message of Opie's post, his racist extremism. He thinks that if the Euros don't start having more babies, then all the brown, and, worse in his mind, the black babies will dominate the planet.

What Opie and other narrow-minded people don't understand is that we're all human beings with about 99.5-99.9% genetic commonality. It's the cultures that make the difference, not the genetics.

America became great because it became a melting pot of ideas and cultures. We took the best and made something even better. Now people like Darth, Niblick and others want to break us up, divide the world into zones. That's both idiotic but will eventually fail because that's not how human beings work.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You are one of the bad ambassadors for Christianity because you are foul mouthed, you lie, you slander. Jimmy Carter, my mother, my cousin are good ambassadors for Christianity. I do not mind Pence's faith as long as he does not pass laws forcing women to give birth or legislating the Old Testament.

You need to write a response to what I actually wrote, not what you wish I wrote.
I am on public record noting that there are liberal strains of evangelicalism, including the traditionally black Baptist churches. I have the posts to prove I made that point long before you did.

I wrote that "that strain" of evangelicalism has discredited itself- aka, the evangelical conservatives who prostrate themselves and worship the noted Orange-tinted atheist Donald Trump.

Hate to disagree, but if a person doesn't believe like a Christian and act like a Christian, how can they be a Christian except in name only?

Therefore, people like PmP and RB 60 are not "bad ambassadors for Christianity" because by their very actions they aren't Christians.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I know I'm having trouble seeing that myself.

People like Niblick only see the bad, never the good. Despite all the bullshit on this forum and on cable news, how many people are repeatedly accosted by religious fanatics at home, on the streets or in stores?

It's happened to me a few times over the past 50ish years, but it's very rare. Note that "religious fanatics", like "political fanatics" are fanatics. They use religion and/or politics to express they mental illness(es).

Televangelists are just taking advantage of the mentally ill for profit. Politicians like Trump do the same thing. That doesn't make religion or politics bad. It just makes people like them bad.