Obama Has Paralyzed the CIA

uscitizen said:
Some people apparently need some waterboarding to convince them what is torture and what is interrogation.

And this calling it enhanced interrogation sounds like it is straight from Roves lips.
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This isnt a political issue, and only fools turn it into one. Some people need to be convinced what the true definition of torture is. Ive already demonstrated that some of you actually believe we executed Japanese officers solely for waterboarding (and it wasnt even the same method we use), at the same time you also compare actual torture, as in actions that left physical scars, were actually physically damaging, extremely painful and where death had occurred. You use the same term to describe both... the methods we use which do not cause any physical harm and certainly with no threat of death, and the methods that do cause physical harm and in some cases death both mean the same thing to you. This is unfortunate.

This isnt to say that it cant be an offense to the sensitivities of some of you, clearly for some of you if the food tastes bad then its "torture", you fling around the terms as long as they justify your political argument. Its sad.

At the same time when you prosecute people by redefining words and losing perspective you do hold the threat over the people currently trying to do their jobs, and it inhibits them. "Is the food warm enough?", "Is the cell temperature just right?", "Should we use handcuffs?"... "I dont want to go to jail because someone at any moment can redefine what my intentions are and prosecute me."

This is a bad road to go down for nothing but political goals. National Security is bad place for politicians to be leading with hunts in order to get votes.

SR
 
Mottleydude said:
What is the matter with you chickenhawks? Why are you so willing to sell your rights and freedom cause some wingnut has scared you about a boogy man. You still looking under your bed at nights to make sure OBL isn't there? It must be a horrible, horrible existence to be a coward and have to live in such fear.
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It is OBL who's running scared, or at least he was when Bush was president.
 
Southern Man said:
Isn't that the point, that officials are getting prosecuted for doing their jobs and keeping America safe?
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Nope.

The point is that there are a lot of realy ignorant people in America.

"made us less safe?".. you mean less safe then we were on 9/11 when 19 cavemen supposedly penetrated America's zillion dollar defense?

Did anyone even lose their job over that?

NOPE .. no prosecution and nobody lost their job.

And excuse me Miss Muffet, but wasn't that the CIA I saw cheering Obama like teenagers at a rock concert?

I'm sure they're glad have you to speak for them.
 
SR_ said:
This isnt a political issue, and only fools turn it into one. Some people need to be convinced what the true definition of torture is. Ive already demonstrated that some of you actually believe we executed Japanese officers solely for waterboarding (and it wasnt even the same method we use), at the same time you also compare actual torture, as in actions that left physical scars, were actually physically damaging, extremely painful and where death had occurred. You use the same term to describe both... the methods we use which do not cause any physical harm and certainly with no threat of death, and the methods that do cause physical harm and in some cases death both mean the same thing to you. This is unfortunate.

This isnt to say that it cant be an offense to the sensitivities of some of you, clearly for some of you if the food tastes bad then its "torture", you fling around the terms as long as they justify your political argument. Its sad.

At the same time when you prosecute people by redefining words and losing perspective you do hold the threat over the people currently trying to do their jobs, and it inhibits them. "Is the food warm enough?", "Is the cell temperature just right?", "Should we use handcuffs?"... "I dont want to go to jail because someone at any moment can redefine what my intentions are and prosecute me."

This is a bad road to go down for nothing but political goals. National Security is bad place for politicians to be leading with hunts in order to get votes.

SR
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The bold is hilarious considering that the Bush Administration had its lawyers manufacture a laughable legal argument that techniques derived from those used by the Chinese during the Korean War to elicit false confessions was not torture.

I also point out that the FBI refused to play along because the leadership at the FBI knew full well that the horseshit legal arguments presented in the OLC memoranda were in fact horseshit.
 
evince said:
when do you ever listen?


Name me one "conspiracy" I was wrong about.
Click to expand...
========

OK!

Thermite bullshit
9/11 WTC downed by explosives
Bld.7 controlled explosion
Voting machines hacked to throw elections
Sup. Court appointed Bush President
Your ability to walk and chew gum at the same time...

Just to start....
 
Dungheap said:
The bold is hilarious considering that the Bush Administration had its lawyers manufacture a laughable legal argument that techniques derived from those used by the Chinese during the Korean War to elicit false confessions was not torture.

I also point out that the FBI refused to play along because the leadership at the FBI knew full well that the horseshit legal arguments presented in the OLC memoranda were in fact horseshit.
Click to expand...

Why is so hard for some of you to stay focused? Its like Bush has overwhelmed and taken control of your mind.

This has nothing to do with Bush, Bush isnt the one talking about prosecuting anyone for doing their job. This is entirely about President Obama and the false outrage that has consumed this entire issue not to mention the political manuevering to try and take advantage of the weak minded.

Our own Director of National Intelligence has spoken to the information that was gathered by the use of waterboarding. And you think its hilarious and then talk about false confessions from the chinese?

Bush is no longer President. Let it go... all of this stems from the action of the CURRENT administration and the politicizing of the jobs that the CIA and other agencies do in order to gather intelligence.

As I mentioned, you now create an environment where CIA interrogators or any other interrogator is inhibited to do something "wrong" since it has been shown that people are willing to do that if it helps them politically, the national security is a distant 4th or 5th in priority. And now they have a hard time doing anything since prosecution for bad tasting food could be on the horizon.

Thats whay "paralyzes" the CIA. This shouldnt be a political issue, unfortunately it is.

SR
 
SR_ said:
This isnt a political issue, and only fools turn it into one. Some people need to be convinced what the true definition of torture is. Ive already demonstrated that some of you actually believe we executed Japanese officers solely for waterboarding (and it wasnt even the same method we use), at the same time you also compare actual torture, as in actions that left physical scars, were actually physically damaging, extremely painful and where death had occurred. You use the same term to describe both... the methods we use which do not cause any physical harm and certainly with no threat of death, and the methods that do cause physical harm and in some cases death both mean the same thing to you. This is unfortunate.

This isnt to say that it cant be an offense to the sensitivities of some of you, clearly for some of you if the food tastes bad then its "torture", you fling around the terms as long as they justify your political argument. Its sad.

At the same time when you prosecute people by redefining words and losing perspective you do hold the threat over the people currently trying to do their jobs, and it inhibits them. "Is the food warm enough?", "Is the cell temperature just right?", "Should we use handcuffs?"... "I dont want to go to jail because someone at any moment can redefine what my intentions are and prosecute me."

This is a bad road to go down for nothing but political goals. National Security is bad place for politicians to be leading with hunts in order to get votes.

SR
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History is a wonderful thing.

You are aware that such a thing as history exists, are you not?

When American POW's were waterboarded by the Japanese, it's torture and we HANGED the perpetrators and sentenced others to long terms of hard labor in prison.

There was no misunderstanding then about what constituted torture.

Nor was there any misunderstanding in 1983 in San Jacinto County, Texas, where James Parker, the county sheriff, and three deputies were criminally charged for handcuffing suspects to chairs, draping towels over their faces and pouring water over the towel until a confession was elicited. One victim described the experience this way: "I thought I was going to be strangled to death. ... I couldn't breath."

The sheriff pleaded guilty and his deputies went to trial where they were convicted of civil rights violations. All received long prison sentences. U.S. District Judge James DeAnda told the former sheriff at sentencing, "The operation down there would embarrass the dictator of a country."

There was no misunderstanding about what torture was then, and there isn't any now.
 
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blackascoal said:
History is a wonderful thing.

You are aware that such a thing as history exists, are you not?

When American POW's were waterboarded by the Japanese, it's torture and we HANGED the perpetrators and sentenced others to long terms of hard labor in prison.

There was no misunderstanding then about what constituted torture.

Nor was there any misunderstanding in 1983 in San Jacinto County, Texas, where James Parker, the county sheriff, and three deputies were criminally charged for handcuffing suspects to chairs, draping towels over their faces and pouring water over the towel until a confession was elicited. One victim described the experience this way: "I thought I was going to be strangled to death. ... I couldn't breath."

The sheriff pleaded guilty and his deputies went to trial where they were convicted of civil rights violations. All received long prison sentences. U.S. District Judge James DeAnda told the former sheriff at sentencing, "The operation down there would embarrass the dictator of a country."

There was no misunderstanding about what torture was then, and there isn't any now.
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once again. The United States has never charged, hanged, or imprisoned any Japanese officers for waterboarding. This is a myth that some of you are so intent on believing that it has become an arguing point... its false. It never happened.

What sherrifs do to detained US CITIZENS after being pulled over or arrested is NOT the same process nor do they share the same SOP as a captured terrorist on a foreign battlefield.

Again.

Perspective would go a long way for some of you.

What do you think the reprecussions would be if a police officer went to arrest a car thief at his trailer house, and that thief shot out of his window of
trailer house with a .22, and the police officer called in an artillery strike on the trailer park?

Comparing war with police activities disregards all measure of perspective.

SR
 
SR_ said:
Why is so hard for some of you to stay focused? Its like Bush has overwhelmed and taken control of your mind.

This has nothing to do with Bush, Bush isnt the one talking about prosecuting anyone for doing their job. This is entirely about President Obama and the false outrage that has consumed this entire issue not to mention the political manuevering to try and take advantage of the weak minded.

Our own Director of National Intelligence has spoken to the information that was gathered by the use of waterboarding. And you think its hilarious and then talk about false confessions from the chinese?

Bush is no longer President. Let it go... all of this stems from the action of the CURRENT administration and the politicizing of the jobs that the CIA and other agencies do in order to gather intelligence.

As I mentioned, you now create an environment where CIA interrogators or any other interrogator is inhibited to do something "wrong" since it has been shown that people are willing to do that if it helps them politically, the national security is a distant 4th or 5th in priority. And now they have a hard time doing anything since prosecution for bad tasting food could be on the horizon.

Thats whay "paralyzes" the CIA. This shouldnt be a political issue, unfortunately it is.

SR
Click to expand...


Um, folks at the CIA need not worry if they follow what has been established law for quite some time now. The only reason there is any issue whatsoever is because the halfwits in the DOJ-OLC under Bush redefined torture to not include techniques that the Chinese used to elicit false confessions in the Korean War. In fact, the CIA folks likely knew that they were breaking the law and that's why they requested OLC review of the techniques authorized by political appointees. Their reliance on those memoranda is understandable, but given that the FBI refused to participate in the torture techniques notwithstanding the OLC CYA I have trouble concluding tha the interrogators were pure as the driven snow.

Moreover, Obama has already issued an Executive Order that governs what the CIA is permitted to do in interrogations. Specifically, the CIA must conform to the Army Field Manual. What is permitted by the Field Manual is clear and there is simply no ambiguity that would "paralyze" anyone
at all. If anyone at the CIA feels paralyzed by the constraints imposed by the Field Manual they should find a new line of work.

One thing I agree with you on is that that this isn't a political issue. And it isn't really a national security issue. It's a simply matter of whether the rule of law is anything more than a meaningless platitude. You say it is. I say otherwise.
 
Why bother to even capture them. We should have just shot the bastards.

This is the one that has always stuck in my mind and made my blood boil with anger.



Dungheap said:
Um, folks at the CIA need not worry if they follow what has been established law for quite some time now. The only reason there is any issue whatsoever is because the halfwits in the DOJ-OLC under Bush redefined torture to not include techniques that the Chinese used to elicit false confessions in the Korean War. In fact, the CIA folks likely knew that they were breaking the law and that's why they requested OLC review of the techniques authorized by political appointees. Their reliance on those memoranda is understandable, but given that the FBI refused to participate in the torture techniques notwithstanding the OLC CYA I have trouble concluding tha the interrogators were pure as the driven snow.

Moreover, Obama has already issued an Executive Order that governs what the CIA is permitted to do in interrogations. Specifically, the CIA must conform to the Army Field Manual. What is permitted by the Field Manual is clear and there is simply no ambiguity that would "paralyze" anyone
at all. If anyone at the CIA feels paralyzed by the constraints imposed by the Field Manual they should find a new line of work.

One thing I agree with you on is that that this isn't a political issue. And it isn't really a national security issue. It's a simply matter of whether the rule of law is anything more than a meaningless platitude. You say it is. I say otherwise.
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SR_ said:
once again. The United States has never charged, hanged, or imprisoned any Japanese officers for waterboarding. This is a myth that some of you are so intent on believing that it has become an arguing point... its false. It never happened.

What sherrifs do to detained US CITIZENS after being pulled over or arrested is NOT the same process nor do they share the same SOP as a captured terrorist on a foreign battlefield.

Again.

Perspective would go a long way for some of you.

What do you think the reprecussions would be if a police officer went to arrest a car thief at his trailer house, and that thief shot out of his window of
trailer house with a .22, and the police officer called in an artillery strike on the trailer park?

Comparing war with police activities disregards all measure of perspective.

SR
Click to expand...

Let me repeat something I asked you earlier .. You are aware that such a thing as history exists, are you not?

Appraently not.

The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

more at link --
Waterboarding Used to be a Crime
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

The point about the sheriff was in hopes that if you didn't know history, you might at least have common sense. It demonstrated that waterboarding is commonly and has always been considered tortue no matter who was doing it and regardless of reason.

The desperate attempt to reframe what is torture is mindless and indicative of a non-thinking individual who is led by ideology, not by common sense.
 
blackascoal said:
Let me repeat something I asked you earlier .. You are aware that such a thing as history exists, are you not?

Appraently not.

The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

In this case from the tribunal's records, the victim was a prisoner in the Japanese-occupied Dutch East Indies:

A towel was fixed under the chin and down over the face. Then many buckets of water were poured into the towel so that the water gradually reached the mouth and rising further eventually also the nostrils, which resulted in his becoming unconscious and collapsing like a person drowned. This procedure was sometimes repeated 5-6 times in succession.

more at link --
Waterboarding Used to be a Crime
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html

The point about the sheriff was in hopes that if you didn't know history, you might at least have common sense. It demonstrated that waterboarding is commonly and has always been considered tortue no matter who was doing it and regardless of reason.

The desperate attempt to reframe what is torture is mindless and indicative of a non-thinking individual who is led by ideology, not by common sense.
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Again, you are confused. The United States has NOT ever charged, convicted, or executed anyone on the charge of water boarding. ALL Japanese officers that were charged or convicted of war crimes, were sentenced or executed for actual war crimes, not for waterboarding.

In addition, the method the Japanese used for waterboarding, IS NOT the method we use. It is not the method legally laid out in the SOP for interrogations.

You do great injustice to those POW's who were in fact tortured to ATTEMPT to elevate something you do not even take the time to learn about when you try and equate a technique that is harmless with something that indeed caused substantial harm.

There is no point about the sheriff. What some hicks do is not comparable to that of trained intelligence interrogators, it also has no bearing in this discussion because US Citizens have specific civil rights applied within our OWN justice system.

As I demonstrated, you cannot equate the civil criminal justice dept. and what they can or cannot do within the laws governing the executive branch in relation to the arrest and rights of US Citizens to that of terrorists captured on the battlefield. We dont even give the same "rights" to captured POW's on the battlefield. There is no habeus corpus provided to captured POW's during times of war, are you going to now suggest that since we dont provide a POW with legal aide that we are torturing them because you point to some US case where police officers arrested someone and didnt read them their rights?

AGAIN... PERSPECTIVE.

SR
 
seems I have to repeat this alot.

Waterboarding is NOT 'enhanced interrogation', it is TORTURE.

There is no other definition for it. It is torture. There is no possible extralegal manuevering to be done to redefine it as enhanced interrogation. It is torture.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
seems I have to repeat this alot.

Waterboarding is NOT 'enhanced interrogation', it is TORTURE.

There is no other definition for it. It is torture. There is no possible extralegal manuevering to be done to redefine it as enhanced interrogation. It is torture.
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Argumentum ad nauseam; still not true.
 
blackascoal said:
Nope.
...

"made us less safe?".. you mean less safe then we were on 9/11 when 19 cavemen supposedly penetrated America's zillion dollar defense?....
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We've been through this before, remember. After I proved it was Clinton's fault so you called me a racist then insulted my mother?
 
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