Crowds flock to reopened Jacksonville beaches as Florida hits record coronavirus case

If the free market is so wonderful and innovative, surely it can innovate ways to continue doing business in a post-COVID world.

If not, then the free market isn't all it's cracked up to be, and the democratic socialists were right.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch Uncle,



It would be just as disingenuous to blame all of Congress for the irresponsible tax cut as it was for DT to gather only the Republicans for the photo-op to sign the bipartisan stimulus package.
Click to expand...

It's fair to only blame those who voted in support of tax cuts and/or the Federal budget.

Examples:

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=116&session=2&vote=00080

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/votes_new.htm

https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/Appropriations+for+Fiscal+Year+2020
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed. The reverse is true: It's wishful thinking that people can lock themselves at home for 6-12 months, watch their children's future evaporate and their businesses go under in order to save 3% of the weakest members of society.

This is a war and, in war, 3% dead is an acceptable number.
Click to expand...

I think you overestimate the impact on the majority of Americans. The problem you have is that you need 100% or very near 100% participation, and you are not going to get anywhere near that. First, we are in a recession. Second, we are in a public health crisis. People aren't going to behave in the manner necessary to return the economy to a functioning level until people feel safe. Me? I can do that as long as necessary. And if I represent even 20% of the population, re-opening will not solve the problem. And I suspect I represent a lot more than 20%.
 
LV426 said:
If a kid's future evaporates because we have 6-12 months of social distancing, then that future wasn't a good one to begin with.

How does remote learning result in the evaporation of a kid's future?

We need to stay inside as long as it takes. Opening anything back up without testing or a vaccine will merely proliferate the spread of the virus. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Does the free market NOT ADAPT to new market conditions? If what you're saying is true, that the free market is destroyed by 6-12 months of social distancing, then that free market wasn't a good model to begin with.
Click to expand...

Disagreed. Americans have grown weak, soft and spineless. This will toughen them up. There's a reason the "Greatest Generation" was called the "Greatest Generation".
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed. Americans have grown weak, soft and spineless. This will toughen them up. There's a reason the "Greatest Generation" was called the "Greatest Generation".
Click to expand...

So you think people being afraid of catching COVID is the underlying problem with our economy?
 
Opemopem said:
Things are left to the states I suppose to decide
Click to expand...

So I guess COVID will simply disappear from someone's system if they cross the invisible border between Pennsylvania to New York?

If people are crossing state borders and spreading the virus, that sounds like a federal issue, not a state one.
 
Concart said:
I think you overestimate the impact on the majority of Americans. The problem you have is that you need 100% or very near 100% participation, and you are not going to get anywhere near that. First, we are in a recession. Second, we are in a public health crisis. People aren't going to behave in the manner necessary to return the economy to a functioning level until people feel safe. Me? I can do that as long as necessary. And if I represent even 20% of the population, re-opening will not solve the problem. And I suspect I represent a lot more than 20%.
Click to expand...
Dude, I'm counting on the impact of a majority of Americans. I'm counting on Human Nature. I've been a student of Human Nature since college. Individuals vary within a set of parameters, but as a group, humans often move in predictable ways.

My guess is they'll weigh near complete financial ruin of their families versus a 3% risk the weak will die. The healthy and young think they are bullet-proof which is why millions pay the penalty rather than for Obamacare. As this forum proves, several old farts also think they are bullet-proof or take Trump's word that this is a fake virus no worse than the flu and that it is grossly over-hyped.

The bottom line is that millions will stay home and go broke, but most will go back to work ASAP.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...bamacare-individual-mandate-penalty-maps.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucej...up-penalty-more-than-obamacares/#2935fd8a549c
 
LV426 said:
So I guess COVID will simply disappear from someone's system if they cross the invisible border between Pennsylvania to New York?

If people are crossing state borders and spreading the virus, that sounds like a federal issue, not a state one.
Click to expand...

No, it won't. Eventually most Americans will have it. We'll suck it up and take the 3% hit. Bury our dead and move forward.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
No, it won't. Eventually most Americans will have it. We'll suck it up and take the 3% hit. Bury our dead and move forward.
Click to expand...

Your callous disregard for life is the biggest tell here.

3% would mean 9.9M people would die.

Maybe you don't care because you have no one in your life, so it's a sacrifice you're perfectly OK having other people make.

I personally don't want any of my family or friends to die from COVID. But if you want to sacrifice yourself, I would suggest not waiting for COVID. You can blow your own head off any time you want.
 
LV426 said:
So I guess COVID will simply disappear from someone's system if they cross the invisible border between Pennsylvania to New York?

If people are crossing state borders and spreading the virus, that sounds like a federal issue, not a state one.
Click to expand...

Nope. Trump is going to build walls.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Dude, I'm counting on the impact of a majority of Americans. I'm counting on Human Nature. I've been a student of Human Nature since college. Individuals vary within a set of parameters, but as a group, humans often move in predictable ways.

My guess is they'll weigh near complete financial ruin of their families versus a 3% risk the weak will die. The healthy and young think they are bullet-proof which is why millions pay the penalty rather than for Obamacare. As this forum proves, several old farts also think they are bullet-proof or take Trump's word that this is a fake virus no worse than the flu and that it is grossly over-hyped.

The bottom line is that millions will stay home and go broke, but most will go back to work ASAP.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...bamacare-individual-mandate-penalty-maps.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucej...up-penalty-more-than-obamacares/#2935fd8a549c
Click to expand...

Millions will stay home and not go broke. I reject your premise that this is a binary choice for most. It isn't. I can have my cake and eat it too. I just need to have it delivered.
 
Concart said:
Millions will stay home and not go broke. I reject your premise that this is a binary choice for most. It isn't. I can have my cake and eat it too. I just need to have it delivered.
Click to expand...

If the capitalist economy is so fragile and immovable that it cannot adapt to new market conditions, then it was never the best economic model to begin with.
 
LV426 said:
Because you said Americans were "weak, soft, and spineless".
Click to expand...

Most are. They're spoiled. They're like Hillary's "Dead broke"; they whine and bitch a lot but in reality, they are better off than most of the planet.

Even our poor have access to clean water, sanitation, food, a television set and many own a car. "Poor" in most of the world means living in constant fear of rape and murder in a hut without access to clean drinking water and on a starvation diet.

On a side note, IMO, the best thing we could do for our nation is to reinstitute the draft, no deferments, but allow draftees to select from Americorps, the Dept. of Health, Peace Corps along with the military. Get them away from Mommy and Daddy then stick them in a Third World Shithole. They'll all come home better for it.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/wash_statistics.html
  • Worldwide, 780 million people do not have access to an improved water source *
  • 2.
  • An estimated 2.5 billion people lack access to improved sanitation (more than 35% of the world’s population) 1,
  • 3.
  • According to the World Health Organization and UNICEF, regions with the lowest coverage of “improved” sanitation in 2006 were sub-Saharan Africa (31%), Southern Asia (33%) and Eastern Asia (65%) 2.
  • In 2006, 7 out of 10 people without access to improved sanitation were rural inhabitants 2.
  • According to the United Nations and UNICEF, one in five girls of primary-school age are not in school, compared to one in six boys. One factor accounting for this difference is the lack of sanitation facilities for girls reaching puberty. Girls are also more likely to be responsible for collecting water for their family, making it difficult for them to attend school during school hours 13, 14. The installation of toilets and latrines may enable school children, especially menstruating girls, to further their education by remaining in the school system.
  • Disease & Death
  • An estimated 801,000 children younger than 5 years of age perish from diarrhea each year, mostly in developing countries. This amounts to 11% of the 7.6 million deaths of children under the age of five and means that about 2,200 children are dying every day as a result of diarrheal diseases 4.
  • Unsafe drinking water, inadequate availability of water for hygiene, and lack of access to sanitation together contribute to about 88% of deaths from diarrheal diseases 1.
  • Worldwide, millions of people are infected with neglected tropical diseases (NTDs), many of which are water and/or hygiene-related, such as Guinea Worm Disease, Buruli Ulcer, Trachoma, and Schistosomiasis. These diseases are most often found in places with unsafe drinking water, poor sanitation, and insufficient hygiene practices 8, 9.
  • Worldwide, soil-transmitted helminths infect more than one billion people due to a lack of adequate sanitation 10.
  • Guinea Worm Disease (GWD) is an extremely painful parasitic infection spread through contaminated drinking water. GWD is characterized by spaghetti-like worms up to 1 meter in length slowly emerging from the human body through blisters on the skin anywhere on the body but usually on the lower legs or lower arms. Infection affects poor communities in remote parts of Africa that do not have safe water to drink. In 2015, 22 cases of Guinea Worm Disease were reported. Most of those cases were from Chad (41%) 11.
  • Trachoma is the world’s leading cause of preventable blindness and results from poor hygiene and sanitation. Approximately 41 million people suffer from active trachoma and nearly 10 million people are visually impaired or irreversibly blind as a result of trachoma 12. Trachoma infection can be prevented through increased facial cleanliness with soap and clean water, and improved sanitation.
  • Prevention
  • Water, sanitation and hygiene has the potential to prevent at least 9.1% of the global disease burden and 6.3% of all deaths 1.The impact of clean water technologies on public health in the U.S. is estimated to have had a rate of return of 23 to 1 for investments in water filtration and chlorination during the first half of the 20th century 5.
  • Water and sanitation interventions are cost effective across all world regions. These interventions were demonstrated to produce economic benefits ranging from US$ 5 to US$ 46 per US$ 1 invested 6.
  • Improved water sources reduce diarrhea morbidity by 21%; improved sanitation reduces diarrhea morbidity by 37.5%; and the simple act of washing hands at critical times can reduce the number of diarrhea cases by as much as 35%. Improvement of drinking-water quality, such as point-of-use disinfection, would lead to a 45% reduction of diarrhea episodes 7.
  • In order to meet the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 to halve the proportion of people without sustainable access to improved drinking water and basic sanitation by 2015:
  • An estimated 784 million people will need to gain access to an improved water source.
  • An estimated 173 million people on average per year will need to begin using improved sanitation facilities (accounting for expected population growth) 2.
  • Even if the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 for improved drinking water and basic sanitation is reached by 2015, it will still leave:
  • An estimated 790 million people (11% of the world’s population) without access to an improved water supply.
  • An estimated 1.8 billion people (25% of the world’s population) without access to adequate sanitation 15.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Most are. They're spoiled. They're like Hillary's "Dead broke"; they whine and bitch a lot but in reality, they are better off than most of the planet.

Even our poor have access to clean water, sanitation, food, a television set and many own a car. "Poor" in most of the world means living in constant fear of rape and murder in a hut without access to clean drinking water and on a starvation diet.

On a side note, IMO, the best thing we could do for our nation is to reinstitute the draft, no deferments, but allow draftees to select from Americorps, the Dept. of Health, Peace Corps along with the military. Get them away from Mommy and Daddy then stick them in a Third World Shithole. They'll all come home better for it.

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/wash_statistics.html
  • Worldwide, 780 million people do not have access to an improved water source *
  • 2.
  • An estimated 2.5 billion people lack access to improved sanitation (more than 35% of the world’s population) 1,
  • 3.
  • According to the World Health Organization and UNICEF, regions with the lowest coverage of “improved” sanitation in 2006 were sub-Saharan Africa (31%), Southern Asia (33%) and Eastern Asia (65%) 2.
  • In 2006, 7 out of 10 people without access to improved sanitation were rural inhabitants 2.
  • According to the United Nations and UNICEF, one in five girls of primary-school age are not in school, compared to one in six boys. One factor accounting for this difference is the lack of sanitation facilities for girls reaching puberty. Girls are also more likely to be responsible for collecting water for their family, making it difficult for them to attend school during school hours 13, 14. The installation of toilets and latrines may enable school children, especially menstruating girls, to further their education by remaining in the school system.
  • Disease & Death
  • An estimated 801,000 children younger than 5 years of age perish from diarrhea each year, mostly in developing countries. This amounts to 11% of the 7.6 million deaths of children under the age of five and means that about 2,200 children are dying every day as a result of diarrheal diseases 4.
  • Unsafe drinking water, inadequate availability of water for hygiene, and lack of access to sanitation together contribute to about 88% of deaths from diarrheal diseases 1.
  • Worldwide, millions of people are infected with neglected tropical diseases (NTDs), many of which are water and/or hygiene-related, such as Guinea Worm Disease, Buruli Ulcer, Trachoma, and Schistosomiasis. These diseases are most often found in places with unsafe drinking water, poor sanitation, and insufficient hygiene practices 8, 9.
  • Worldwide, soil-transmitted helminths infect more than one billion people due to a lack of adequate sanitation 10.
  • Guinea Worm Disease (GWD) is an extremely painful parasitic infection spread through contaminated drinking water. GWD is characterized by spaghetti-like worms up to 1 meter in length slowly emerging from the human body through blisters on the skin anywhere on the body but usually on the lower legs or lower arms. Infection affects poor communities in remote parts of Africa that do not have safe water to drink. In 2015, 22 cases of Guinea Worm Disease were reported. Most of those cases were from Chad (41%) 11.
  • Trachoma is the world’s leading cause of preventable blindness and results from poor hygiene and sanitation. Approximately 41 million people suffer from active trachoma and nearly 10 million people are visually impaired or irreversibly blind as a result of trachoma 12. Trachoma infection can be prevented through increased facial cleanliness with soap and clean water, and improved sanitation.
  • Prevention
  • Water, sanitation and hygiene has the potential to prevent at least 9.1% of the global disease burden and 6.3% of all deaths 1.The impact of clean water technologies on public health in the U.S. is estimated to have had a rate of return of 23 to 1 for investments in water filtration and chlorination during the first half of the 20th century 5.
  • Water and sanitation interventions are cost effective across all world regions. These interventions were demonstrated to produce economic benefits ranging from US$ 5 to US$ 46 per US$ 1 invested 6.
  • Improved water sources reduce diarrhea morbidity by 21%; improved sanitation reduces diarrhea morbidity by 37.5%; and the simple act of washing hands at critical times can reduce the number of diarrhea cases by as much as 35%. Improvement of drinking-water quality, such as point-of-use disinfection, would lead to a 45% reduction of diarrhea episodes 7.
  • In order to meet the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 to halve the proportion of people without sustainable access to improved drinking water and basic sanitation by 2015:
  • An estimated 784 million people will need to gain access to an improved water source.
  • An estimated 173 million people on average per year will need to begin using improved sanitation facilities (accounting for expected population growth) 2.
  • Even if the United Nations’ Millennium Development Goal 13 for improved drinking water and basic sanitation is reached by 2015, it will still leave:
  • An estimated 790 million people (11% of the world’s population) without access to an improved water supply.
  • An estimated 1.8 billion people (25% of the world’s population) without access to adequate sanitation 15.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's an effective argument to measure our standard of living vs. other countries. In fact, it feels like an act of avoidance and cowardice.

Like, we have structural issues that you avoid addressing by saying "well, it's worse in X country". It's a tactic meant to sidetrack the conversation from our country's own vulnerabilities.
 
LV426 said:
If the capitalist economy is so fragile and immovable that it cannot adapt to new market conditions, then it was never the best economic model to begin with.
Click to expand...

The aggregated effect of individual decisions not being more nimble than top down planned is not the best criticism of capitalism, IMO.
The essential problem with capitalism is the irrationality of individual success to the success prospects of the whole group or organism.
If we set up a system where we isolate the winner, he/she theoretically is the last man standing. And already, given the systems that exist,
we have a thousand or so billionaires who own most everything and some of these people, presumably aren't even evil, they just invented something
an marketing created a need for it beyond opt out threshold. Fact is. we were just fine before the ubiquitous computer.

When Genghis khan invents the better mousetrap, watchout. We are all dead. Most people are on a drip as it is.
 
Concart said:
Millions will stay home and not go broke. I reject your premise that this is a binary choice for most. It isn't. I can have my cake and eat it too. I just need to have it delivered.
Click to expand...

Sure. Some people are rich and some people telecommute. What percentage of working Americans do you think can stay home and not go broke?

Go for it. Just don't expect you can force everyone else to do the same.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed. The reverse is true: It's wishful thinking that people can lock themselves at home for 6-12 months, watch their children's future evaporate and their businesses go under in order to save 3% of the weakest members of society.

This is a war and, in war, 3% dead is an acceptable number.
Click to expand...
Well I've changed my mind thinking you are Owl's sock. :laugh:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top