Inspecter General investigation into the DOJ

Wow. You ate up the DoJ line pretty quickly on this one.
Didn't know that was their line. I based my comments on my experience in LAW SCHOOL. I learned criminal law from LaFave JUST LIKE AT HARVARD AND YALE. They didn't teach them anything different than I learned and I would go toe to toe in a criminal trial against ANYONE that graduated from Harvard or Yale. The problem is people are SOOOO enamored of college names that any degree from ANY college at harvard or yale instantaneously imbues you with some degree of knowledge that NO ONE ELSE could possibly have. Pure bullshit plain and simple. If you want to prosecute or defend in the criminal world then you really shouldn't spend 20k or more a year to do it. If you want to work 80 hours a week at a large firm and make 100k your first year, they hell yeah do that shit, but even there, they use the same contracts text book I did and the same torts text I did etc. Graduating from Harvard or Yale does not mean you will be a better lawyer on the first day out of law school. It only means that more people will want to hire you so they can say they have ONE MORE Harvard grad or Yalie on their payroll.
 
Didn't know that was their line. I based my comments on my experience in LAW SCHOOL. I learned criminal law from LaFave JUST LIKE AT HARVARD AND YALE. They didn't teach them anything different than I learned and I would go toe to toe in a criminal trial against ANYONE that graduated from Harvard or Yale. The problem is people are SOOOO enamored of college names that any degree from ANY college at harvard or yale instantaneously imbues you with some degree of knowledge that NO ONE ELSE could possibly have. Pure bullshit plain and simple. If you want to prosecute or defend in the criminal world then you really shouldn't spend 20k or more a year to do it. If you want to work 80 hours a week at a large firm and make 100k your first year, they hell yeah do that shit, but even there, they use the same contracts text book I did and the same torts text I did etc. Graduating from Harvard or Yale does not mean you will be a better lawyer on the first day out of law school. It only means that more people will want to hire you so they can say they have ONE MORE Harvard grad or Yalie on their payroll.

I'm not a lawyer but I think you are right on point with what you are saying. The biggest selling point that Harvard (and some others) has (have) is their alumni association and the benefits that come from that. B-School works the same as law school in that regard.

I'm not sure how law schools are rated. Is it by number of people in a class who pass the bar?
 
Didn't know that was their line. I based my comments on my experience in LAW SCHOOL. I learned criminal law from LaFave JUST LIKE AT HARVARD AND YALE. They didn't teach them anything different than I learned and I would go toe to toe in a criminal trial against ANYONE that graduated from Harvard or Yale. The problem is people are SOOOO enamored of college names that any degree from ANY college at harvard or yale instantaneously imbues you with some degree of knowledge that NO ONE ELSE could possibly have. Pure bullshit plain and simple. If you want to prosecute or defend in the criminal world then you really shouldn't spend 20k or more a year to do it. If you want to work 80 hours a week at a large firm and make 100k your first year, they hell yeah do that shit, but even there, they use the same contracts text book I did and the same torts text I did etc. Graduating from Harvard or Yale does not mean you will be a better lawyer on the first day out of law school. It only means that more people will want to hire you so they can say they have ONE MORE Harvard grad or Yalie on their payroll.


You seem a bit touchy on this issue so I'll just let it go.

The bottom line is that if you went to school X were in the top10% of your class and were a member of the ACLU and the guy next to you went to school X as well and was also in the top 10% of the class but was a memner of the Federalist society the other guy would get the job and you wouldn't because of your respective political affiliations.

And for the record, one of the criteria under the changed rules was whether the applicant came from a top-20 law school according to U.S. News and World Report. The elitism stayed.
 
I am only touchy in that you imply that I agree with Ashcroft and his cronies. They should never have hired based on political affiliation or belief. But to pretend that ONLY grads from top 20 law schools can do the oh so arduous task of prosecuting is bullshit and if the elitism stayed under Ashcroft it was bullshit then too.
 
I am only touchy in that you imply that I agree with Ashcroft and his cronies. They should never have hired based on political affiliation or belief. But to pretend that ONLY grads from top 20 law schools can do the oh so arduous task of prosecuting is bullshit and if the elitism stayed under Ashcroft it was bullshit then too.


Is is elitism or meritocracy? I mean, it is in fact true that the standards to get into the top-20 are ridiculously high and favoring students from those schools can serve as a useful shorthand in some situations.

Keep in mind that attending a top-20 school was one of four preferences that candidates had to meet. The others were a federal clerkship, top 20% of your class or on law review.
 
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Is is elitism or meritocracy? I mean, it is in fact true that the standards to get into the top-20 are ridiculously high and favoring students from those schools can serve as a useful shorthand in some situations.

Keep in mind that attending a top-20 school was one of three preferences that candidates had to meet. The others were a federal clerkship, top 20% of your class or on law review.

Where does the bit about Ivy league come from?

Top 20 ranked law schools NOT in the Ivy League.
2 - Stanford
5 - NYU
6 - UC Berkeley
7 - U Chicago
9 - Northwestern
9 - U Michigan
9 - U Virginia
12- Duke
14- Georgetown
15- Vanderbilt
16- UCLA
16- UTexas - Austin
18- USC
19- Washington
20- George Washington

15 Schools of the top 20 are not Ivy league.
 
Where does the bit about Ivy league come from?

Top 20 ranked law schools NOT in the Ivy League.
2 - Stanford
5 - NYU
6 - UC Berkeley
7 - U Chicago
9 - Northwestern
9 - U Michigan
9 - U Virginia
12- Duke
14- Georgetown
15- Vanderbilt
16- UCLA
16- UTexas - Austin
18- USC
19- Washington
20- George Washington

15 Schools of the top 20 are not Ivy league.



It was a bullshit line trotted out by the DoJ.
 
Where does the bit about Ivy league come from?

Top 20 ranked law schools NOT in the Ivy League.
2 - Stanford
5 - NYU
6 - UC Berkeley
7 - U Chicago
9 - Northwestern
9 - U Michigan
9 - U Virginia
12- Duke
14- Georgetown
15- Vanderbilt
16- UCLA
16- UTexas - Austin
18- USC
19- Washington
20- George Washington

15 Schools of the top 20 are not Ivy league.

Yeah what's up now Superfreak! Step off bitch and bow down before greatness in front of you!
 
You got it DH.
It was propaganda and they bought it hook line and sinker.

You guys are too easily manipulated.

Don't jump to a conclusion. Do you know, for a fact, that the DOJ spokesman's statement is not valid? Even if the contention "Ivy League" is not valid, is it possible that the hiring was concentrated in an elite selection of schools to the detriment of others? At this point the answer is not shown in either direction.
 
Don't jump to a conclusion. Do you know, for a fact, that the DOJ spokesman's statement is not valid? Even if the contention "Ivy League" is not valid, is it possible that the hiring was concentrated in an elite selection of schools? At this point the answer is not shown in either direction.


With all due respect, the Ivy League line was bullshit. Pure and simple. It was a smokescreen so that people would sit down and say, "Hey, I didn't go to an Ivy League school. Why shouldn't I get the opportunity to pursue a career at the DoJ."

The bottom line is that regardless of where a candidate went to school and how well the candidate performed and the candidates qualifications (for example, one person who was first in his class at Georgetown who clerked for two federal judges but also worked for Russ Feingold and Human Rights Watch was tossed out of consideration) the Department of Justice illegally considered political affiliation in hiring for career positions at the DoJ.
 
You're a jackass and have no clue how the government works, let alone how the Department of Justice has operated for the past god-knows-how-long.

In short, there are career non-partisan attorneys and officials that work in the department (and other departments) for their entire careers regardless of who is the President. Then there are political appointees that each president gets to make. This president changed all that and made general hiring practices for career non-appointee positions subject to political litmus tests and more like the hiring practices for the appointee positions, thus polticizing the DoJ unliek any president before him

This is going to be the biggest problem for a Obama administration if he wins. There are political hacks in career positions in probably every department of the government that won't just go away with a new administration. And the elves will be busy for sure.


You’re right. I hope the Obama team is thinking ahead on how to handle this. I think that they are smart enough to be doing that.
 
With all due respect, the Ivy League line was bullshit. Pure and simple. It was a smokescreen so that people would sit down and say, "Hey, I didn't go to an Ivy League school. Why shouldn't I get the opportunity to pursue a career at the DoJ."

The bottom line is that regardless of where a candidate went to school and how well the candidate performed and the candidates qualifications (for example, one person who was first in his class at Georgetown who clerked for two federal judges but also worked for Russ Feingold and Human Rights Watch was tossed out of consideration) the Department of Justice illegally considered political affiliation in hiring for career positions at the DoJ.

I wish everyone would read about what happened to our justice system under this administration and understand that this is what happened, just how dangerous it is, and stop trying to divert attention from this crucial issue with a bunch of other crap.
 
...for example, one person who was first in his class at Georgetown who clerked for two federal judges but also worked for Russ Feingold and Human Rights Watch was tossed out of consideration) the Department of Justice illegally considered political affiliation in hiring for career positions at the DoJ.
That's a new element that I haven't seen in this conversation before. Can you link please?
 
That's a new element that I haven't seen in this conversation before. Can you link please?


Gladly. And please allow me to excerpt and highlight some of the key passages:

WASHINGTON -- Justice Department officials over the last six years illegally used “political or ideological” factors to hire new lawyers into an elite recruitment program, tapping law school graduates with conservative credentials over those with liberal-sounding resumes, a new report found Tuesday.

The blistering report, prepared by the Justice Department’s inspector general, is the first in what will be a series of investigations growing out of last year’s scandal over the firings of nine United States attorneys. It appeared to confirm for the first time in an official examination many of the allegations from critics who charged that the Justice Department had become overly politicized during the Bush administration.

“Many qualified candidates” were rejected for the department’s honors program because of what was perceived as a liberal bias, the report found. Those practices, the report concluded, “constituted misconduct and also violated the department’s policies and civil service law that prohibit discrimination in hiring based on political or ideological affiliations.”

The shift began in 2002, when advisers to then-Attorney General John Ashcroft restructured the honors program in response to what some officials saw as a liberal tilt in recruiting young lawyers from elite law schools like Harvard and Yale. While the recruitment was once controlled largely by career officials in each section who would review applications, political officials in the department began to assume more control, rejecting candidates with liberal or Democratic affiliations “at a significantly higher rate” than those with Republican or conservative credentials, the report said.

The shift appeared to accelerate in 2006, under then-Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, with two aides on the screening committee — Michael Elston and Esther Slater McDonald — singled out for particular criticism. The blocking of applicants with liberal credentials appeared to be a particular problem in the Justice Department’s civil rights division, which has seen an exodus of career employees in recent years as the department has pursued a more conservative agenda in deciding what types of cases to bring.

Applications that contained what were seen as “leftist commentary” or “buzz words” like environmental and social justice were often grounds for rejecting applicants, according to e-mails reviewed by the inspector general’s office. Membership in liberal organizations like the American Constitution Society, Greenpeace, or the Poverty and Race Research Action Council were also seen as negative marks.

Affiliation with the Federalist Society, a prominent conservative group, was viewed positively.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/25/w...rss&adxnnlx=1214337687-AONfUL0jHu+XrNUpWsmdBw
 
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