More Traitor Monuments .....Gone

sear said:
Thank you for so skillfully pirouetting through the mine-field. I'll try to knock some of the coarser burs off.

a) It's not my attempt at "removing all evidence of homage to Thomas Jefferson". EXTREMELY to the contrary. I'm trying to point out, and have already done so explicitly by quoting Kundera, that considering humans as either 100% good or purely evil is silly, and almost certainly never true, except in the case of the still-born.

b) Jefferson was the primary author of the Declaration of Independence, with Adams & Franklin his editors. It is Madison, not Jefferson that is associated with the Constitutional Convention, the Federalist Papers, etc.

c) If we are ever to only always erect monuments to what YOU deem good, then why is there a memorial at the site where Manhattan's twin towers once stood? Because UBL wasn't really such a bad bloke after all?! I don't THINK so !!

This is such an important point.
By sweeping it under the rug, we do ourselves and subsequent generations no favors.

LOOKIT !!

If the orphans were all unshod, stumbling through the snow barefoot, malnourished, and starving, and somebody was advocating taking the orphanage's meager budget and blowing the whole bundle* on a grand bronze statue of some Rebel hooligan, that dirt-ball advocate should be drawn & quartered.

BUT THE STATUARY IS ALREADY HERE!! THE $$MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT !! NO AMOUNT OF SWEEPING IT UNDER THE RUGGING IS GUNNA UNRING THE BELL !!!

I'm not justifying slavery. I'm not making excuses for the evil-doers, or the evil they did. But those that do not study history are destined to repeat it.
And this statuary is a special reminder that it's not merely a historian's story published in a book that sits on a dusty shelf.
It immediately and irrefutably dispels any potential for the myth that - it can't happen here -. IT ALREADY HAS !!!

It is not me the self-righteous should be angry at. It is the revisionists of history that want to remove the statues, the monuments that are already there. However well intentioned it / they may be, it is a SPECTACULARLY bad idea!

* "Every gun that is made, every warship that is launched, every rocket that is fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children ..." President Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Put simply those that worked to build the country deserve a monument. Those that worked to destroy the country do not deserve a monument. Monument 101.
 
and we cared for them like they were



they were forced to be Americans again


so we took care of them.


would they have taken care of Union fighters if they won?

NO
 
"Put simply those that worked to build the country deserve a monument. Those that worked to destroy the country do not deserve a monument. Monument 101." kg #141 championing the cause of historic revisionism
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Agreed. That is quite simple indeed.
 
these honors coming down is a good thing


they were built to scare black citizens YEARS and decades after the civil war,


taking down these racist HONORINGS doesnt make them disapear from history


its makes HONORING them disapear
 
no one is saying their names should be struck from the history books people


they will be remembered


they are now not HONORED
 
"no one is saying their names should be struck from the history books people
they will be remembered
they are now not HONORED" e #148
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Removing such statuary tampers with, distorts the historical record.

EVEN IF HISTORIC ACCOUNTS REMAIN IN BOOKS the more accurate perspective will be lost.

Robert E. Lee was a bad guy? SPLENDID! You go tell everybody while I sip this here mint julep.

Here's a clue for you. Robert E. Lee didn't pay for the statue.
This statuary imparts revealing clues about our history. Not merely Robert E. Lee, but about the antebellum attitudes that prevailed, and carried through long after the war was over.
These statues provide useful insight into the culture of the People that paid for and located (sited) them.

So what?

Don't you realize the U.S. lost well over a half million men to this "war of Northern aggression"? Over 500,000 !!!
And please bear in mind, in that era, or total population was about 32 million.
Proportional to today's U.S. population, that would a loss of five million, a staggering casualty count!
"they are now not HONORED" e #148
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And that won't change by sweeping it under the rug.

There's another name for revisionist history. It's called "fiction". I cannot recommend it.
 
sear said:
Removing such statuary tampers with, distorts the historical record.

EVEN IF HISTORIC ACCOUNTS REMAIN IN BOOKS the more accurate perspective will be lost.

Robert E. Lee was a bad guy? SPLENDID! You go tell everybody while I sip this here mint julep.

Here's a clue for you. Robert E. Lee didn't pay for the statue.
This statuary imparts revealing clues about our history. Not merely Robert E. Lee, but about the antebellum attitudes that prevailed, and carried through long after the war was over.
These statues provide useful insight into the culture of the People that paid for and located (sited) them.

So what?

Don't you realize the U.S. lost well over a half million men to this "war of Northern aggression"? Over 500,000 !!!
And please bear in mind, in that era, or total population was about 32 million.
Proportional to today's U.S. population, that would a loss of five million, a staggering casualty count!

And that won't change by sweeping it under the rug.

There's another name for revisionist history. It's called "fiction". I cannot recommend it.
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B******* you're just trying to come up with a clever way to defend your racism. The important thing here to get is that the racist that put the statues up are now losing civil people are taking them down.
 
noise said:
The Confederate soldiers were declared US vets. ISIS removes/destroys statues. do the math
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Not interested in your math my friend.

ISIS is made up of terrorists and those who have no respect for human life, environment, law, or government .. and that describes Trump and his minions exactly. And, both are held in low esteem and opinion with disgust throughout the world.

Being one of those minions I don't expect you to agree, but there isn't a damn thing you can do about confedrate monuments coming down or how this nation will recast the traitorous and vile history of the south.
 
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sear said:
Removing such statuary tampers with, distorts the historical record.

EVEN IF HISTORIC ACCOUNTS REMAIN IN BOOKS the more accurate perspective will be lost.

Robert E. Lee was a bad guy? SPLENDID! You go tell everybody while I sip this here mint julep.

Here's a clue for you. Robert E. Lee didn't pay for the statue.
This statuary imparts revealing clues about our history. Not merely Robert E. Lee, but about the antebellum attitudes that prevailed, and carried through long after the war was over.
These statues provide useful insight into the culture of the People that paid for and located (sited) them.

So what?

Don't you realize the U.S. lost well over a half million men to this "war of Northern aggression"? Over 500,000 !!!
And please bear in mind, in that era, or total population was about 32 million.
Proportional to today's U.S. population, that would a loss of five million, a staggering casualty count!

And that won't change by sweeping it under the rug.

There's another name for revisionist history. It's called "fiction". I cannot recommend it.
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:0) You're free to cast that evil anyway you choose in your small mind.

Nothing you can do about how society will cast it.
 
"B******* you're just trying to come up with a clever way to defend your racism. The important thing here to get is that the racist that put the statues up are now losing civil people are taking them down." k #150
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I stated my position.
k #150 is ignorant accusatory ad hom about my motive; not about the issue. Who do you think you're fooling ?!
 
sear said:
I stated my position.
k #150 is ignorant accusatory ad hom about my motive; not about the issue. Who do you think you're fooling ?!
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You wanting to s*** on people of color is pretty transparent who do you think you're fooling
 
It does more harm than good to slave descendants to take your history revision approach.

That's why I advocate:

a) leaving the existing statuary where it is, &

b) adding to it, such things as explanatory plaques, and other educational augmentations chronicling the progress being made in civil rights.

There have been oppressed minorities for millennia, since the time JC strode the Earth.

I was born in 1954. At that time there were segregated water fountains and lunch counters.

I remember where I was, what I was doing when I learned MLK had been assassinated.

Bringing equality to my People, the complete end of discrimination can't happen soon enough for me.

But it would be ignorant to not recognize the enormous, historically rapid progress we've made in my lifetime.

Who when I was born would have believed we would ELECT a Black man to THE White House, in my lifetime?

The buffoonery of demonizing me is ignorant.

Might my position on it mesh IN PART with racists?

Perhaps, though I've never heard any of them advocating for augmenting these displays with historic plaques, etc.

But the logic of my accusatory critics posting in this thread would have you believe that because I put my pants on with the zipper in the front, you know, the way Hitler did, that I must therefore be a Nazi!

Well guess what Einsteins all.

I'm neither a racist, nor a Nazi.

Merry Christmas
 
sear said:
It does more harm than good to slave descendants to take your history revision approach.

That's why I advocate:

a) leaving the existing statuary where it is, &

b) adding to it, such things as explanatory plaques, and other educational augmentations chronicling the progress being made in civil rights.

There have been oppressed minorities for millennia, since the time JC strode the Earth.

I was born in 1954. At that time there were segregated water fountains and lunch counters.

I remember where I was, what I was doing when I learned MLK had been assassinated.

Bringing equality to my People, the complete end of discrimination can't happen soon enough for me.

But it would be ignorant to not recognize the enormous, historically rapid progress we've made in my lifetime.

Who when I was born would have believed we would ELECT a Black man to THE White House, in my lifetime?

The buffoonery of demonizing me is ignorant.

Might my position on it mesh IN PART with racists?

Perhaps, though I've never heard any of them advocating for augmenting these displays with historic plaques, etc.

But the logic of my accusatory critics posting in this thread would have you believe that because I put my pants on with the zipper in the front, you know, the way Hitler did, that I must therefore be a Nazi!

Well guess what Einsteins all.

I'm neither a racist, nor a Nazi.

Merry Christmas
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Typically the confederate monuments are in central locations oh honor like a town square. A plaque is a nice gesture but clearly isnt the same as having a monument to something positive. Pretending you arent a racist is just that, pretend.
 
blackascoal said:
ISIS is made up of terrorists and those who have no respect for human life, environment, law, or government .. and that describes Trump and his minions exactly.
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:palm:

And, both are held in low esteem and opinion with disgust throughout the world.
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depends

Being one of those minions I don't expect you to agree, but there isn't a damn thing you can do about confedrate monuments coming down or how this nation will recast the traitorous and vile history of the south.
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i can certainly call out the mindlessness of characterizing all monuments as the same.
Do you want the battlefield monuments removed too? How about those at Gettysburg,or Antietam ?
 
noise said:
:palm:

depends

i can certainly call out the mindlessness of characterizing all monuments as the same.
Do you want the battlefield monuments removed too? How about those at Gettysburg,or Antietam ?
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It's real simple, slavery, the confederacy, the south, and all its warriors should be forever cast as the evil they all were. Monsters are not heroes. There is nothing honorable or glorious about them.

Monuments are not required to remember history, and anyone who suggests that is a fool.

I recently visited a battlefield monument, Ft. Pulaski on Tybee Island. It was interesting thinking of the well-deserved anguish and pain confederate soldiers endured in the 30 hour bombardment of the fort .. but it wasn't needed to know and understand the importance of the battle. History must be known far beyond just those who visit a monument, any monument.

You argue for a lost cause in more ways than one.
 
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