Russia warns Poland over WW2 memorials

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dukkha

Verified User
The Russian government has warned Poland that it will face sanctions if it removes monuments glorifying the Soviet victory in World War Two.

Last month Poland updated its "de-communisation" legislation, banning "totalitarian" symbols, which would include Soviet propaganda monuments.
Now Russian foreign ministry officials have warned of "asymmetric measures" if Poland removes Soviet war monuments

Russia could refuse visas for Polish officials or downgrade trade relations.
The officials, quoted by the Russian daily Izvestia, were not named.
The Red Army's defeat of Nazi German forces on Polish soil in 1944-1945 remains a thorny issue in Russian-Polish relations.

Many Poles viewed the Red Army as an occupation force, not as liberators, as the 1939 Nazi-Soviet pact had carved up Poland between two dictatorships.

Earlier this month the Russian foreign ministry condemned the new Polish "de-communisation" law as "an outrageous provocation", and warned of unspecified "consequences".

"The USSR paid the highest price to liberate Poland - on that country's soil, in battles with the enemy, more than 600,000 Soviet soldiers and officers died and were buried. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet prisoners of war, who died in Nazi concentration camps, also lie in Polish soil," the ministry said.

Polish officials have been quoted as saying monuments at Soviet war cemeteries will remain untouched.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...morials/ar-AApaiOJ?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp
 
The Great Patriotic War, which cost the USSR nearly 30 million lives, has touched nearly every Russian family in some way
 
Soviets war memorials are something to behold. I have visited some in the former USSR, and they are completely off the charts!! Over the top! No one beats the Soviets at this kind of stuff!

architecture-14286-bembel.jpg


There are two things Americans don't understand and have no conception of. The scope of the sacrifice of the Soviet peoples in defeating Hitler -the way it has left an enduring psychological scar on the collective consciousness of the peoples of the former Soviet Republics.

And Americans really have no clue about the complex dynamics and history of the Poles and the Russians. 500 years of Russian-Polish history and conflict are in play here.

This is really something we are not entitled to have an opinion on, because there are cultural and historical dynamics at play that are beyond the comprehension of Americans.
 
Cypress said:
Soviets war memorials are something to behold. I have visited some in the former USSR, and they are completely off the charts!! Over the top! No one beats the Soviets at this kind of stuff!

architecture-14286-bembel.jpg


There are two things Americans don't understand and have no conception of. The scope of the sacrifice of the Soviet peoples in defeating Hitler -the way it has left an enduring psychological scar on the collective consciousness of the peoples of the former Soviet Republics.

And Americans really have no clue about the complex dynamics and history of the Poles and the Russians. 500 years of Russian-Polish history and conflict are in play here.

This is really something we are not entitled to have an opinion on, because there are cultural and historical dynamics at play that are beyond the comprehension of Americans.
Click to expand...

I actually agree that historical monuments should be left alone.
 
Cypress said:
Soviets war memorials are something to behold. I have visited some in the former USSR, and they are completely off the charts!! Over the top! No one beats the Soviets at this kind of stuff!

architecture-14286-bembel.jpg


There are two things Americans don't understand and have no conception of. The scope of the sacrifice of the Soviet peoples in defeating Hitler -the way it has left an enduring psychological scar on the collective consciousness of the peoples of the former Soviet Republics.

And Americans really have no clue about the complex dynamics and history of the Poles and the Russians. 500 years of Russian-Polish history and conflict are in play here.

This is really something we are not entitled to have an opinion on, because there are cultural and historical dynamics at play that are beyond the comprehension of Americans.
Click to expand...
apparently there is one more thing about which some Americans have no clue.......the Soviet Union no longer exists.....
 
Liberals: Soviet historical monuments should be left alone, American historical monuments are either racist or an establishment of religion........
 
PostmodernProphet said:
apparently there is one more thing about which some Americans have no clue.......the Soviet Union no longer exists.....
Click to expand...

Well, you are showing your American ignorance of world history, and your American abject lack of knowledge about eastern European.

There are a lot of people who are offended about claims of a "Russian" victory over Hitler. Namely, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Lithuanians. Who arguably sacrificed more, and suffered proportionally to a greater extent, than actual ethnic Russians did.

Not to mention citizens of the dozen or so other ethnic republics of the USSR, who participated in the epic victory over Nazism.

So it is widely accepted by people in the former Soviet republics, especially the East Slavic states, that WWII was, and is to this day, a Soviet victory of arms....not merely a "Russian" one.

And hence the reference - historical and current - to Soviet war memorials.
 
Threedee said:
Since the Russians helped the Krauts invade/occupy Poland, the can suck it. Tear the fucking things down.
Click to expand...

Yep....... They & the nazi's invaded Poland........ & they kept the land they took....... No liberation, one enemy was replaced by another....
 
Cypress said:
Well, you are showing your American ignorance of world history, and your American abject lack of knowledge about eastern European.

There are a lot of people who are offended about claims of a "Russian" victory over Hitler. Namely, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Lithuanians. Who arguably sacrificed more, and suffered proportionally to a greater extent, than actual ethnic Russians did.

Not to mention citizens of the dozen or so other ethnic republics of the USSR, who participated in the epic victory over Nazism.

So it is widely accepted by people in the former Soviet republics, especially the East Slavic states, that WWII was, and is to this IMday, a Soviet victory of arms....not merely a "Russian" one.

And hence the reference - historical and current - to Soviet war memorials.
Click to expand...
Yes there was a victory, yes by many groups @ the behest of a murderer, often on pain of death.. It was done not to liberate Poland but to conquer it.. They kept the land they believed theirs via the dirty deal w/ the nazis......

The Poles had no say, they were reoccupied by one of the countries that attacked them.........
 
Cypress said:
Well, you are showing your American ignorance of world history, and your American abject lack of knowledge about eastern European.

There are a lot of people who are offended about claims of a "Russian" victory over Hitler. Namely, Ukrainians, Belarusians, and Lithuanians. Who arguably sacrificed more, and suffered proportionally to a greater extent, than actual ethnic Russians did.

Not to mention citizens of the dozen or so other ethnic republics of the USSR, who participated in the epic victory over Nazism.

So it is widely accepted by people in the former Soviet republics, especially the East Slavic states, that WWII was, and is to this day, a Soviet victory of arms....not merely a "Russian" one.

And hence the reference - historical and current - to Soviet war memorials.
Click to expand...
good perspective..
thanks for reminding us Russia wasn't the only one who suffered in the struggle against nazism
 
Bill said:
Yep....... They & the nazi's invaded Poland........ & they kept the land they took....... No liberation, one enemy was replaced by another....
Click to expand...

I think the monuments are an issue for Poles and Russians to debate. I don't feel like I know enough, or am even vested in this to have a opinion that matters.



I think it is possible to believe two things at the same time, which are not mutually contradictory.

Stalin was a murderous thug who had designs on dominating the countries of eastern Europe, and repression of any opposition therein.

It is also a fact that Hitler and the defeat of genocidal Nazism was because of the soldiers of the Red Army; a victory of the Soviet Union.
North Africa and the belated western front were just sideshows. World War 2 was decided, decisively, by the tenacious efforts of the Red Army at Stalingrad, Kursk, and Berlin. The United States would not have defeated Hitler on our own. And the vast majority of the millions of Soviet soldiers and Soviet civilians who died were just normal people. Some better than others. The defeat of the Nazis and the defeating the threat of Hitler's genocidal empire was largely due to soldiers from the USSR.

Do Poles have legitimate greviences against the Soviet Union? No doubt. 500 years of Russo-Polish history has illuminated greviences both sides have against eeach other. But the question of the role of the Red Army's role in ridding the world of the dire threat of Naziism is an established independent fact.
 
Cypress said:
I think the monuments are an issue for Poles and Russians to debate. I don't feel like I know enough, or am even vested in this to have a opinion that matters.



I think it is possible to believe two things at the same time, which are not mutually contradictory.

Stalin was a murderous thug on had designs on dominating the countries of eastern Europe, and repression of any opposition therein.

It is also a fact that Hitler and the defeat of genocidal Nazism was because of the soldiers of the Red Army; a victory of the Soviet Union.
North Africa and the belated western front were just sideshows. World War 2 was decided, decisively, by the tenacious efforts of the Red Army at Stalingrad, Kursk, and Berlin. The United States would not have defeated Hitler on our own. And the vast majority of the millions of Soviet soldiers and Soviet civilians who died were just normal people. Some better than others. The defeat of the Nazis and the defeat threat of Hitler's genocidal empire was largely due to soldiers from the USSR.

Do Poles have legitimate greviences against the Soviet Union? No doubt. 500 years of Russo-Polish history has illuminated greviences both sides have against eeach other. But the question of the role of the Red Army's role in ridding the world of dire threat of Naziism is an established independent fact.
Click to expand...

We are perhaps not going to agree here. Which is fine..

I don't see stalin as the liberator, rather the conquerer..

What they did in "their invasion of Poland" & the taking of their land, deporting well over a million, massacres etc & then occupying it after the war disqualifies them as "liberators"..

Food for thought!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_citizens_(1939–1946)
 
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