Three Reasons why I find the Robart decision terrible overreach

tsuke

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https://tsukesthoughts.wordpress.com/2017/02/07/reckless-robart/

Reckless Robart

By now everyone will have heard about the ruling of Judge Robart. Leaving aside the fact that he made a nationwide ban on an issue raised by two states and the text of the relevant immigration law which gives plenary power to the President over immigration law, I find his decision legally problematic on three grounds. Not only is it the wrong decision here but the precedent it sets can be used by other judges, whether on the right or the left, in the future.

Intent

At your first year of law school one of the very first subjects you will discuss is something called statutory construction. In essence it is how to interpret laws and executive orders made by the executive and legislative. To simplify things for everyone, you first limit your view to the statute itself. If there are any ambiguities you then try to divine legislative intent, which the courts normally do by looking at the transcript of the deliberations. In rare situations when you still cannot get the intent by these methods then you go to other factors that may help you divine intent.

In this case the muslim ban was not borne out by the text of the order as the word muslim does not appear there. In any case the travel ban was so limited in scope that most Muslim countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, or even Kuwait in the same region are not even affected by it. The judge did not even bother looking for any deliberations nor did he give any credence to the stated intent of the administration which was to ban travel from the most unstable countries in the region.

Judge Robart immediately went to statements made by President Trump during the campaign trail to derive legislative intent. What is worse he even gave credence to statements by former Mayor Giuliani, a well known Trump ally, but one that is not part of the administration for corroboration.

Think about the implications of this. Any president at any time can have his public statements, even before he became the president, taken and used to provide intent for a certain executive order to have that blocked. What is worse is even his allies can have their statements taken as legislative intent for the president. By the standard Robart is using any comments someone like President Obama even while he was a senator could be used to block his orders. Any comments by Soros, Emmanuel, or any other ally could be used to block executive.orders. By his standard you can block any thing you want.

Effectivity

In the courtroom the government argued that the travel ban protects the country from terrorists. Robart said he found no support for these claims. Instead of judging based on constitutionality Robart instead judged based on how effective the ban was. I believe this is something he has no right to do.

Generally there are two sources where people draw their decision making legitimacy from. Electability or expertise. Congressmen, Senators, and the President make laws and executive orders that they believe is effective and are believed to have the right to do so because they have been elected by the people. The second one is expertise. The various heads of the government agencies and the people working under them are assumed to have expertise on the subject as they were appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate.

Judge Robart has neither of these, which is why he was asked to ajudicate based on the constitutionality of the issue and nothing else. There is no limits to their power once the judiciary can strike things down based on effectivity. Do you have a judge that does not like Obamacare? Well he can find that they are not effective in reforming healthcare and strike it down. Do you have a judge that does not like social security? Well he can find that it is not effective at providing a social net and strike it down.

Minorities

One of the questions of the case was whether or not you could give priorities to religous minorities which were persecuted. The President would normally have the power to do this given that he has wide plenary powers given to him by the legislative to tailor immigration to national interest.

Understand the implications of this. If the Germans decided to start gassing their jews again you would not be able to prioritize them for the refugee program. Given that religions are banned , the same argument can also be applied to other divisions such as nationalities or race. If the South Africans decided to massacre their white population you could not give them special treatment. If the Chinese did the same to Tibet you could not either. In fact arguing in this same line of thought it is arguable that you could not even give Syrians special treatment as that would discriminate against everyone else.

I am actually stunned at these decisions and the massive judicial overreach that they represent. I do not see anyway they can hold but if they do then the precedent they cause will change our legal system forever.
 
problem is he created precedent already =___=

Not really...If it is struck down anywhere in the chain, then precedent is moot...It would have to succeed.

But with that said, this is just a judge in a long line of 'lifetime appointees' that typically disappoint on the right.
 
Not really...If it is struck down anywhere in the chain, then precedent is moot...It would have to succeed.

But with that said, this is just a judge in a long line of 'lifetime appointees' that typically disappoint on the right.

uhm ive seen cases where the precedent used was from a overturned ruling stating that the overruling was wrong. Just like some people use dissent as precedent to argue stuff.
 
The Far-Left very much WANTS those changes to our legal system.

They understand they will be able to twist and manipulate via them, to add greatly to their own power.

The fact that it will also create a huge amount of abuse of power and injustice means nothing to them, they only care about the aquisition of power.

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The Far-Left very much WANTS those changes to our legal system.

They understand they will be able to twist and manipulate via them, to add greatly to their own power.

The fact that it will also create a huge amount of abuse of power and injustice means nothing to them, they only care about the aquisition of power.

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the thing is the right can use these precedents as well...
 
Like most federal judges, Robart doesn't even look at the law. He took a bribe from the illegal alien lobby and then used moral arguments to justify his decision.
 
the thing is the right can use these precedents as well...

They could, but they won't.

Say what you will about the Right being stoggy, inflexable and closed minded, but they also respect tradition and a sense of honor.

The Right is limited by their sense of ethics and honor.

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They could, but they won't.

Say what you will about the Right being stoggy, inflexable and closed minded, but they also respect tradition and a sense of honor.

The Right is limited by their sense of ethics and honor.

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BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! Good one.
 
Whatever happened to one of the RW'sbfavorite arguments about inalienable rights? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I guess those flew out the window when it came to the refugees.
 
Whatever happened to one of the RW'sbfavorite arguments about inalienable rights? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I guess those flew out the window when it came to the refugees.

If you wanna stop this on those grounds then do so. The main problem with this is that it will reach the Supreme Court and retards like Ginsberg or Sotomayor or both will write a dissent saying this is how to divine legislative intent and yes courts can decide based on effectivity. Future lawyers can then use it in cases.

This is not limited to the left attacking Trump. This is a whole pandora's box your opening. This is the Judicial equivalent of Reid nuking the filibuster.
 
Trump would have better legal standing if he himself had not promised a "Muslim ban" before the election to get his racist, unAmerican followers frothing at the mouth. Courts have every right to take the racist words of racist, white supremacist politicians like Donald Trump into account when they write executive orders that do not mention a single group by name, but clearly target said group. Saying Trumps ban is not a "Muslim ban" is like saying grandfather clauses are allowed because they never specifically mention race - even the awful Lochner era court found that argument spurious.
 
Trump would have better legal standing if he himself had not promised a "Muslim ban" before the election to get his racist, unAmerican followers frothing at the mouth. Courts have every right to take the racist words of racist, white supremacist politicians like Donald Trump into account when they write executive orders that do not mention a single group by name, but clearly target said group. Saying Trumps ban is not a "Muslim ban" is like saying grandfather clauses are allowed because they never specifically mention race - even the awful Lochner era court found that argument spurious.

btw I just want to bring this up. Obama and his surrogates said multiple times that the nohealthcare penalty for the ACA was not a tax. The only way the justices could approve the law was to classify it as a tax.

If we were to use the Robart standard on Obama then the justices would not look at the law for intent or deliberations but straight to the public statements and the ACA or at least the individual mandate would have been struck down.

This is what you are arguing for.
 
Three Reasons why I find the Robart decision terrible overreach

"At your first year of law school one of the very first subjects you will discuss is something called statutory construction." t #1


At your first year in engineering school you will learn enough about objective analysis to understand the supreme utility of the sanity check.

a) If a presidential candidate advocates an indefinite suspension of immigrating all Muslims "until we can figure out what the Hell is going on!" and then the first significant modification to U.S. immigration is a suspension of immigration from 7 nations that by bizarre coincidence just happen to be Muslim, how serious are we expected to take the denials that this isn't bias against the religion of Islam?

b) If such bans had dozens or hundreds of historic precedents since the U.S. Founding, your criticism against the suspension of Trump's "ban" might be less plausible.

BUT !!

It's the 21st Century. Our nation has been accepting immigrants in war and peace every year since 1776.
Is there ANY precedent that can match this one of Trump's?

1) None that I'm aware of.

2) None that I've read reported since the issue reached the news.

BUT !!

It's not President Trump that's out of step.

Trump is fine. It's the whole rest of the world that's out of step.

Yeah. That makes much more sense. This unprecedented new restriction is fine. It's the global criticism that's way out of line.
 
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