We the People Concert and Telethon to counter Trump's Inauguration being planned

anatta said:
FDR had the weapons to save England but
Churchill provided the resolve after Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. Churchill also pressed FDR for Lend-Lease.

The 2 coordinated how to win WWII. Not that there weren't stark difference -but the "Germany first"strategy
was pressed by Churchill.
Why you bring Columbus into this isn't my concern.
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What kind of history books do you read?

The Lend-Lease Act was FDRs idea, not Churchill's. It got him around the Neutrality Act, which he was violating .. and it furthered his desire to become the "Arsenal of Democracy" .. and it shut down the isolationist opposition.


If you can't recognize the analogy .. not my problem.
 
blackascoal said:
What kind of history books do you read?

The Lend-Lease Act was FDRs idea, not Churchill's. It got him around the Neutrality Act, which he was violating .. and it furthered his desire to become the "Arsenal of Democracy" .. and it shut down the isolationist opposition.

Click to expand...
I'm familiar with the policies/isolationists.
If you bothered to read my posts I said "Churchill also pressed FDR for Lend-Lease." True FDR worked out the exact policy with Congress but the reasoning in part was Churchill's pressing FDR for arms. Not that FDR didn't recognize the need - Churchill was pressing the intense timely need.

https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=71
In the 1940 Presidential election campaign, Roosevelt promised to keep America out of the war. He stated, "I have said this before, but I shall say it again and again and again; your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." Nevertheless, FDR wanted to support Britain and believed the United States should serve as a "great arsenal of democracy." Churchill pleaded, "Give us the tools and we'll finish the job." In January 1941, following up on his campaign pledge and the prime minister's appeal for arms, Roosevelt proposed to Congress a new military aid bill.
++

I am not interested in nit-picking some silly minutia on vocabulary.
 
blackascoal said:
You're speaking for yourself, of course.

As more of the fat bastard's evil comes to light, the more people come to know him as the fuckwad that he was. Like Christopher Columbus, as ime passes, Churchill's light will also fade.

Churchill didn't save England, FDR did.
Click to expand...
Bullshit on steroids, where was FDR in the Battle of Britain? It is true enough to say that GB would have capitulated if somebody like Lord Halifax had become Prime Minister. You are truly talking out of your rear end, if you think otherwise.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11157482/The-day-Churchill

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anatta said:
I'm familiar with the policies/isolationists.
If you bothered to read my posts I said "Churchill also pressed FDR for Lend-Lease." True FDR worked out the exact policy with Congress but the reasoning in part was Churchill's pressing FDR for arms. Not that FDR didn't recognize the need - Churchill was pressing the intense timely need.

https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=71
In the 1940 Presidential election campaign, Roosevelt promised to keep America out of the war. He stated, "I have said this before, but I shall say it again and again and again; your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." Nevertheless, FDR wanted to support Britain and believed the United States should serve as a "great arsenal of democracy." Churchill pleaded, "Give us the tools and we'll finish the job." In January 1941, following up on his campaign pledge and the prime minister's appeal for arms, Roosevelt proposed to Congress a new military aid bill.
++

I am not interested in nit-picking some silly minutia on vocabulary.
Click to expand...

I don't give a damn what you aren't interested in.

Proposed in late 1940 and passed in March 1941, the Lend-Lease Act was the principal means for providing U.S. military aid to foreign nations during World War II. It authorized the president to transfer arms or any other defense materials for which Congress appropriated money to “the government of any country whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States.” By allowing the transfer of supplies without compensation to Britain, China, the Soviet Union and other countries, the act permitted the United States to support its war interests without being overextended in battle.
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/lend-lease-act

FDR didn't need Churchill to tell him of England's plight, nor the need to support England .. and other countries. The Lend Lease Act was not designed just to help Emgland or Churchill.
 
anatta said:
FDR had the weapons to save England but
Churchill provided the resolve after Dunkirk and the Battle of Britain. Churchill also pressed FDR for Lend-Lease.

The 2 coordinated how to win WWII. Not that there weren't stark difference -but the "Germany first"strategy
was pressed by Churchill.
Why you bring Columbus into this isn't my concern.
Click to expand...
I think he let's his personal agenda and obvious Presentism to cloud his judgement. If Hitler had managed to control Africa you can be sure that Churchill's racism would have paled into insignificance compared to what the Nazis had in store for der Schwarze.

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blackascoal said:
Without FDR's intervention, you would be speaking German.
Click to expand...

If we had been conquered by the Nazis, the US wouldn't have been able to invade Europe in 1944 and indeed it is certain that Russia would have been vanquished as well. So what then was going to stop Hitler taking over the entire Middle East and Africa? I don't think the Nazis would have had any problem dealing with Islamic fundamentalists, do you?

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blackascoal said:
I don't give a damn what you aren't interested in.

Proposed in late 1940 and passed in March 1941, the Lend-Lease Act was the principal means for providing U.S. military aid to foreign nations during World War II. It authorized the president to transfer arms or any other defense materials for which Congress appropriated money to “the government of any country whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States.” By allowing the transfer of supplies without compensation to Britain, China, the Soviet Union and other countries, the act permitted the United States to support its war interests without being overextended in battle.
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/lend-lease-act

FDR didn't need Churchill to tell him of England's plight, nor the need to support England .. and other countries. The Lend Lease Act was not designed just to help Emgland or Churchill.
Click to expand...
you are saying the same thing I said..I used "Lend Lease " as a generic term for arming GB.
Why I mentioned to you i'm not interested in vocabulary minutia. But if you want to claim some victory point here -have at it

I mentioned the same thing that FDR "didn't need Churchill" to point it out.
But Churchill did point it out and it goes to his resolve to not just acquiese to a British subjugation -he knew GB was the last thing standing between global fascism - and he tirelessly did press FDR on this.
Just like his resolve in the Battle of Britain kept the people willing to fight for their very survival, and not fold under the nightly bombardment.
He was a British Lion and without him who really knows if GB wouldn't have sued for peace.
 
Milagro said:
If we had been conquered by the Nazis, the US wouldn't have been able to invade Europe in 1944 and indeed it is certain that Russia would have been vanquished as well. So what then was going to stop Hitler taking over the entire Middle East and Africa? I don't think the Nazis would have had any problem dealing with Islamic fundamentalists, do you?

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Click to expand...
excellent analysis. GB was the keystone in stopping Hitler.
GB was the staging area for D-Day
 
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Milagro said:
If we had been conquered by the Nazis, the US wouldn't have been able to invade Europe in 1944 and indeed it is certain that Russia would have been vanquished as well. So what then was going to stop Hitler taking over the entire Middle East and Africa? I don't think the Nazis would have had any problem dealing with Islamic fundamentalists, do you?

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Click to expand...

This is why FDR, not Churchill, crafted a way to get the US into the war to save everybody's ass .. including allowing the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Nazis would have run into the same problem the Romans did. Too small a country to rule the world ..

.. and the West created the factions of Islamic fundamentalist on the world stage today.
 
anatta said:
you are saying the same thing I said..I used "Lend Lease " as a generic term for arming GB.
Why I mentioned to you i'm not interested in vocabulary minutia. But if you want to claim some victory point here -have at it

I mentioned the same thing that FDR "didn't need Churchill" to point it out.
But Churchill did point it out and it goes to his resolve to not just acquiese to a British subjugation -he knew GB was the last thing standing between global fascism - and he tirelessly did press FDR on this.
Just like his resolve in the Battle of Britain kept the people willing to fight for their very survival, and not fold under the nightly bombardment.
He was a British Lion and without him who really knows if GB wouldn't have sued for peace.
Click to expand...

I know that Halifax would have done exactly that, it is not even a contentious issue. The one key event that convinced FDR that GB wasn't going to capitulate was the attack on the French fleet at Mers-el-Kébir and Oran.

http://www.historynet.com/operation-catapult-naval-destruction-at-mers-el-kebir.htm





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blackascoal said:
This is why FDR, not Churchill, crafted a way to get the US into the war to save everybody's ass .. including allowing the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Nazis would have run into the same problem the Romans did. Too small a country to rule the world ..

.. and the West created the factions of Islamic fundamentalist on the world stage today.
Click to expand...
That's just another conspiracy theory without much foundation. The truth is that a first lieutenant in Hawaii dismissed the radar evidence of the Japanese planes and assumed they were B17s due in from the mainland.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...er-who-ignored-pearl-harbor-warning-dies.html

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Milagro said:
That's just another conspiracy theory without much foundation. The truth is that a first lieutenant in Hawaii dismissed the radar evidence of the Japanese planes and assumed they were B17s due in from the mainland.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/sto...er-who-ignored-pearl-harbor-warning-dies.html

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Click to expand...

Are you aware the US sunk a Japanese mini-sub in Pearl Harbor Bay one hour before the attack began? No?

Two others were detected and found.

On the morning of 7 December 1941, under the command of LCDR William W. Outerbridge, Ward was conducting a precautionary patrol off the entrance to Pearl Harbor when she was informed at 03:57 by visual signals from the coastal minesweeper Condor of a periscope sighting, whereupon Ward began searching for the contact.[4] At about 06:37, she sighted a periscope apparently tailing the cargo ship Antares whereupon she attacked the target.[4] The target sunk was a Japanese Ko-hyoteki-class two-man midget submarine and thus Ward fired the first American shots of World War II a few hours before Japanese carrier aircraft formally opened the conflict with their attack on the Pacific Fleet inside the harbor. The submarine was attempting to enter the harbor by following Antares through the anti-submarine nets at the harbor entrance. Ward fired several rounds from its main guns hitting the conning tower of the sub and also dropped several depth charges during the attack.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ward_(DD-139)

What time did the attack begin?

The Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor, on December 7th, 1941, was a two pronged attack, comprised of both aerial and underwater components. Five Midget submarines were launched from I-Class mother subs, at the entrance to the harbor. The five Midgets took part in the attack, but history was unclear as to what degree. Remains of two of the midget subs were located shortly after the attack.The third was located by Navy divers in 1960. The fourth, sunk by the USS Ward prior to the air assault, was located by HURL in 2002. That left the last of the midget submarines, and the full story of the underwater attack at Pearl Harbor, still something of a mystery.
https://www.johnchatterton.com/project-files/pearl-harbor-and-the-japanese-midget-submarines/

The subs had a range of about 60 miles .. so unless Japan is 60 miles of the coast of Pearl Harbor, they had to know there were some big ass ships out there that brought them here.
 
blackascoal said:
You must be reading the same history books that Annata reads.

That's called HIS-story .. not history.

Are you aware the US sunk a Japanese mini-sub in Pearl Harbor Bay one hour before the attack began? No?

Two others were detected and found.

On the morning of 7 December 1941, under the command of LCDR William W. Outerbridge, Ward was conducting a precautionary patrol off the entrance to Pearl Harbor when she was informed at 03:57 by visual signals from the coastal minesweeper Condor of a periscope sighting, whereupon Ward began searching for the contact.[4] At about 06:37, she sighted a periscope apparently tailing the cargo ship Antares whereupon she attacked the target.[4] The target sunk was a Japanese Ko-hyoteki-class two-man midget submarine and thus Ward fired the first American shots of World War II a few hours before Japanese carrier aircraft formally opened the conflict with their attack on the Pacific Fleet inside the harbor. The submarine was attempting to enter the harbor by following Antares through the anti-submarine nets at the harbor entrance. Ward fired several rounds from its main guns hitting the conning tower of the sub and also dropped several depth charges during the attack.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ward_(DD-139)

What time did the attack begin?

The Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor, on December 7th, 1941, was a two pronged attack, comprised of both aerial and underwater components. Five Midget submarines were launched from I-Class mother subs, at the entrance to the harbor. The five Midgets took part in the attack, but history was unclear as to what degree. Remains of two of the midget subs were located shortly after the attack.The third was located by Navy divers in 1960. The fourth, sunk by the USS Ward prior to the air assault, was located by HURL in 2002. That left the last of the midget submarines, and the full story of the underwater attack at Pearl Harbor, still something of a mystery.
https://www.johnchatterton.com/project-files/pearl-harbor-and-the-japanese-midget-submarines/

The subs had a range of about 60 miles .. so unless Japan is 60 miles of the coast of Pearl Harbor, they had to know there were some big ass ships out there that brought them here.
Click to expand...
OK. 'll bite.
it was a sunday morning..early. that means the Sec of War wasn't available. and if he was -still news of the sub had to go by telegraph and delivered.Or Telephone messages would have gone in all probability into someones' inbox.
Look at it from a non-conspiratorial view "at this point what difference does it make?" (finding the sub)
Communications were slow -vigilance was lax. Am i correct the sub was spotted only 1 hour before the aerial attack?
 
I recall reading about FDR rounding up all the Jap Americans and putting them into camps. Maybe Trump can use it as a model for the muslims.
 
blackascoal said:
Are you aware the US sunk a Japanese mini-sub in Pearl Harbor Bay one hour before the attack began? No?

Two others were detected and found.

On the morning of 7 December 1941, under the command of LCDR William W. Outerbridge, Ward was conducting a precautionary patrol off the entrance to Pearl Harbor when she was informed at 03:57 by visual signals from the coastal minesweeper Condor of a periscope sighting, whereupon Ward began searching for the contact.[4] At about 06:37, she sighted a periscope apparently tailing the cargo ship Antares whereupon she attacked the target.[4] The target sunk was a Japanese Ko-hyoteki-class two-man midget submarine and thus Ward fired the first American shots of World War II a few hours before Japanese carrier aircraft formally opened the conflict with their attack on the Pacific Fleet inside the harbor. The submarine was attempting to enter the harbor by following Antares through the anti-submarine nets at the harbor entrance. Ward fired several rounds from its main guns hitting the conning tower of the sub and also dropped several depth charges during the attack.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ward_(DD-139)

What time did the attack begin?

The Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor, on December 7th, 1941, was a two pronged attack, comprised of both aerial and underwater components. Five Midget submarines were launched from I-Class mother subs, at the entrance to the harbor. The five Midgets took part in the attack, but history was unclear as to what degree. Remains of two of the midget subs were located shortly after the attack.The third was located by Navy divers in 1960. The fourth, sunk by the USS Ward prior to the air assault, was located by HURL in 2002. That left the last of the midget submarines, and the full story of the underwater attack at Pearl Harbor, still something of a mystery.
https://www.johnchatterton.com/project-files/pearl-harbor-and-the-japanese-midget-submarines/

The subs had a range of about 60 miles .. so unless Japan is 60 miles of the coast of Pearl Harbor, they had to know there were some big ass ships out there that brought them here.
Click to expand...

Yes of course I am aware of the mini-subs, so what? You are indulging in 20-20 hindsight, the US grossly underestimated Japanese capabilities, we did the same thing in Singapore. Are you aware that they sank two capital ships off the coast of Malaysia three days after Pearl Harbour?

The Prince of Wales was the Royal Navy's newest battleship and the shock of losing such a prestige ship was truly profound. The Japanese had actually learnt about the destructive capabilities of torpedo planes from the incredibly audacious British attack on the Italian fleet at Taranto the previous year.

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anatta said:
OK. 'll bite.
it was a sunday morning..early. that means the Sec of War wasn't available. and if he was -still news of the sub had to go by telegraph and delivered.Or Telephone messages would have gone in all probability into someones' inbox.
Look at it from a non-conspiratorial view "at this point what difference does it make?" (finding the sub)
Communications were slow -vigilance was lax. Am i correct the sub was spotted only 1 hour before the aerial attack?
Click to expand...

You'd be correct to know that we expected an attack from Japan. The Ward was patrolling the bay looking for expected intrusion. FDR was prodding Japan to attack.

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
http://www.thenewamerican.com/cultu...pearl-harbor-hawaii-was-surprised-fdr-was-not

Alarms from the Ward and Pearl Harbor went unheeded.

pearlharborwarning.jpg


This tale gets MUCH deeper with documents and evidence US archives .. but I'm not too interested in talking to closed minds about it.
 
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