The Muslim Problem

DigitalDave said:
Ahh, so we should arm them both with guns and hope they kill each other off as they try and take over each others territory. ;)
Again, kidding! We already armed them both!
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LOL. they are not going to fight each other - they still see each other as 'non-takfiri'
Interesting conflict occur in Syria though where they both have a presence, also ISIS in in Afganistan,
but that might just be because ISIS was getting all the headlines.

jihadists want to go with winners just like everyone else. This article mentions "conflicts on the ground..*dunno*

Behind the Syrian War, Al-Qaeda and ISIS Fight for Control of Jihadi Movement
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/201...nd-isis-fight-for-control-of-jihadi-movement/
 
anatta said:
LOL. they are not going to fight each other - they still see each other as 'non-takfiri'
Interesting conflict occur in Syria though where they both have a presence, also ISIS in in Afganistan,
but that might just be because ISIS was getting all the headlines.

jihadists want to go with winners just like everyone else. This article mentions "conflicts on the ground..*dunno*

Behind the Syrian War, Al-Qaeda and ISIS Fight for Control of Jihadi Movement
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/201...nd-isis-fight-for-control-of-jihadi-movement/
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Wishful thinking I suppose.. lol.

Honestly, I like what Anonymous did to the Jihadi's. That was much more humorous and I think it would work better at swaying recruits.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36560852
http://www.techly.com.au/2016/06/16...kes-it-as-fabulously-gay-as-humanly-possible/
 
DigitalDave said:
That's too big of a blanket statement to support. Oftentimes, the status quo is correct. Unfortunately, its the more complex issues that need to be hashed out, and the status quo needs to follow.
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the status quo is going to give you generations more war. seriously 15 years and we havent bothered to change tactics.
 
tsuke said:
the status quo is going to give you generations more war. seriously 15 years and we havent bothered to change tactics.
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Ok, so don't support the status quo. I'm pretty certain I've been saying the status quo is incorrect on this issue this whole time. You just have a different idea of what that status quo is.

Status Quo is 1/3-1/2 of Americans believe Muslims, as a whole are at fault, and refuse to accept that Muslims are fighting this war alongside us. Status Quo is arming the enemies of our enemies without much thought as to what their goals are. Status Quo is overthrowing, invading, or supporting the invasion, of countries with a majority Muslim population. We implemented the stick first tsuke, then promised a carrot, but are still yet to show it.
 
tsuke said:
honestly anonymous wont be able to do anything in this arena. They are really only effective when their opponent is civilized.
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ISIS is recruiting online, and they have been effective at it. It's one reason they haven't fell already, like AQ predicted. We need to tarnish their image if we want to stop them from recruiting online. Maybe would have prevented those 750 recruits in the UK had they been hacked sooner and made to look like the fools they are.
 
DigitalDave said:
Ok, so don't support the status quo. I'm pretty certain I've been saying the status quo is incorrect on this issue this whole time. You just have a different idea of what that status quo is.

Status Quo is 1/3-1/2 of Americans believe Muslims, as a whole are at fault, and refuse to accept that Muslims are fighting this war alongside us. Status Quo is arming the enemies of our enemies without much thought as to what their goals are. Status Quo is overthrowing, invading, or supporting the invasion, of countries with a majority Muslim population. We implemented the stick first tsuke, then promised a carrot, but are still yet to show it.
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personally i think that if we needed to invade we should have done what we needed to do and get out. Hand iraq ands afghanistan over to the next friendly dictator with no nation building.

Since them status quo from what I see is making an excuse for every single thing Islam has done. Giving them political cover by saying it is only due to "cultural differences" and finding feminism in the most anti-feminist society around.

The 1/2 or 1/3rd that you mention are really not what most people see most of the time. The ones they see on tv and other media are the apologists offering the carrot. In fact without trump they may not even be getting any media coverage at all.
 
tsuke said:
personally i think that if we needed to invade we should have done what we needed to do and get out. Hand iraq ands afghanistan over to the next friendly dictator with no nation building.
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We didn't need to invade Iraq at all. That vacuum helped harbor ISIS, and our support of the rebels fighting Syria added to their stockpile. Afghanistan, yes, we needed to take out the Taliban presence there after they committed their act of war.

tsuke said:
Since them status quo from what I see is making an excuse for every single thing Islam has done. Giving them political cover by saying it is only due to "cultural differences" and finding feminism in the most anti-feminist society around.
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ISLAM HASN'T INVADED US ONCE! That is why we have to freaking keep re-hashing this stupid argument over and over! Maybe this is why people want to take your guns, because you can't focus on your target.

tsuke said:
The 1/2 or 1/3rd that you mention are really not what most people see most of the time. The ones they see on tv and other media are the apologists offering the carrot. In fact without trump they may not even be getting any media coverage at all.
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I'm sorry, but that 1/2-1/3 is very commonplace and is very obvious. It was before Trump ran for president, and has been for quite a while. When people here on JPP were wishing we'd just carpet bomb/nuke the entire Middle East, it was obvious. When Bush proposed invading Iraq, it was obvious. When we overthrew the Shah, it was obvious. All Muslims = Bad, and we must install democracy to get them to change to our ways. That's the status quo, and it's the stick. What carrot have we provided again? Oh the liberals yell at YOU for blaming muslims? That don't help them one bit, other than moral support, all while we bomb the shit out of whoever we choose next. All stick, no carrot... but yet they still side with us in this war.
 
DigitalDave said:
We didn't need to invade Iraq at all. That vacuum helped harbor ISIS, and our support of the rebels fighting Syria added to their stockpile. Afghanistan, yes, we needed to take out the Taliban presence there after they committed their act of war.



ISLAM HASN'T INVADED US ONCE! That is why we have to freaking keep re-hashing this stupid argument over and over! Maybe this is why people want to take your guns, because you can't focus on your target.



I'm sorry, but that 1/2-1/3 is very commonplace and is very obvious. It was before Trump ran for president, and has been for quite a while. When people here on JPP were wishing we'd just carpet bomb/nuke the entire Middle East, it was obvious. When Bush proposed invading Iraq, it was obvious. When we overthrew the Shah, it was obvious. All Muslims = Bad, and we must install democracy to get them to change to our ways. That's the status quo, and it's the stick. What carrot have we provided again? Oh the liberals yell at YOU for blaming muslims? That don't help them one bit, other than moral support, all while we bomb the shit out of whoever we choose next. All stick, no carrot... but yet they still side with us in this war.
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yes but see those people are not on tv. they may be on forums but honestly how much publicity do we get in a forum anyway? The main stream media and the alternative media are full of liberal apologists saying muslims can do no wrong. Its the difference between what people see and what they may think. If your in doubt just look at the Orlando coverage. How much of it is actually anti muslim? Maybe just in fox?

Islam hasnt invaded us, although you know they want to death to america and all that, but they did perpetrate 9/11 and multiple terror attacks since then before and after ISIS. For the record I think Iraq would have turned out ok if we just replaced saddam with someone else and destroyed every wmd facility we could find.

We are where we are though and from what I can see its 15 years of carrot. Even Obamas combat policies put environmental damage and damage to civilians as a priority over damage to troops and wiping out the enemy.
 
tsuke said:
yes but see those people are not on tv. they may be on forums but honestly how much publicity do we get in a forum anyway? The main stream media and the alternative media are full of liberal apologists saying muslims can do no wrong. Its the difference between what people see and what they may think. If your in doubt just look at the Orlando coverage. How much of it is actually anti muslim? Maybe just in fox?
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If people like myself were not constantly put into this precarious position of defending a religion that they mostly don't agree with in the first place, we might be able to have an honest debate with the Muslim world with the issues we don't agree with them on. Muslims are not fighting us, they are with us. Why should the media outlets have to report on something to make it seem like the Muslims are fighting us when they aren't? How did you even find out he was Muslim? Pretty sure you found out through the news. Since then, you've focused on that simple aspect of him being Muslim. What religion was Timothy McVeigh? The media didn't make a big deal out of his religion, because he was just a fruitcake. When it's a Muslim though, everyone knows!

tsuke said:
Islam hasnt invaded us, although you know they want to death to america and all that, but they did perpetrate 9/11 and multiple terror attacks since then before and after ISIS. For the record I think Iraq would have turned out ok if we just replaced saddam with someone else and destroyed every wmd facility we could find.
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Islam did not commit 9/11, and they do not want death to the US. We have Al Queda/Taliban/ISIS and a few other jihadist groups. But Islam has denounced them all.

tsuke said:
We are where we are though and from what I can see its 15 years of carrot. Even Obamas combat policies put environmental damage and damage to civilians as a priority over damage to troops and wiping out the enemy.
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What I don't think most people understand, including our president, is that there are multiple steps to ending the terrorism, and it will take much longer than 15 years. We have to stop entire generations from growing up and being easily brainwashed into believing the US are invaders and infidels. These jihadis drill into childrens heads that we are evil, and must be destroyed. We can go kill those that teach this crap to them, but where does that leave the children who were taught to hate us? We leave them with evidence that their teachers were correct. Up springs a new generation of terror. Or, we can work with the rest of the Muslim world to help us guide these children down a better path. Even then, it will take multiple generations to stamp it out. However, if we keep invading every chance we get, we create more distrust and hate, which equals better opportunities for the jihadists to recruit.
 
DigitalDave said:
If people like myself were not constantly put into this precarious position of defending a religion that they mostly don't agree with in the first place, we might be able to have an honest debate with the Muslim world with the issues we don't agree with them on. Muslims are not fighting us, they are with us. Why should the media outlets have to report on something to make it seem like the Muslims are fighting us when they aren't? How did you even find out he was Muslim? Pretty sure you found out through the news. Since then, you've focused on that simple aspect of him being Muslim. What religion was Timothy McVeigh? The media didn't make a big deal out of his religion, because he was just a fruitcake. When it's a Muslim though, everyone knows!



Islam did not commit 9/11, and they do not want death to the US. We have Al Queda/Taliban/ISIS and a few other jihadist groups. But Islam has denounced them all.



What I don't think most people understand, including our president, is that there are multiple steps to ending the terrorism, and it will take much longer than 15 years. We have to stop entire generations from growing up and being easily brainwashed into believing the US are invaders and infidels. These jihadis drill into childrens heads that we are evil, and must be destroyed. We can go kill those that teach this crap to them, but where does that leave the children who were taught to hate us? We leave them with evidence that their teachers were correct. Up springs a new generation of terror. Or, we can work with the rest of the Muslim world to help us guide these children down a better path. Even then, it will take multiple generations to stamp it out. However, if we keep invading every chance we get, we create more distrust and hate, which equals better opportunities for the jihadists to recruit.
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so that generational thing is not fine with me. We endure 5-10 major attacks a year. and were supposed to do that for multiple generations? No we need to try something else.

Theres two forces here. The extremists who I think need to be brutalized into submission as they will never leave us alone. and the moderates which we need to seperate from them. Trying the carrot to do this is great but when it fails as it has the stick.

I think that those infected by the jihadis have no hope already so we dont need to worry too much about them rather than how to kill them faster.
 
whack a mole (counter-terrorism),drones ( but not signature strikes) as well as supporting Egypt and Saudi Arabia

(whatever you think of SA; the government is on the front lines fighting AQ - and this silly meddling in Egypt
has weakened historic ties - SA is a big prize for AQ). and quit the damn regime change ( Iraq/Libya) stupidity
would go a long way.
Recognize Iran's power, but not it's hegemony....all this is being considered at a much more nuanced level then I can speak to.

Go after 'radical Islam" at the same time we support peaceful Islam.
Right now you got Trump calling it "the Muslim problem" while Obama refuses to recognize jihadism
 
DigitalDave said:
Well, except when you stated the number was 1500 in ISIS from the UK, that was a bit of an exaggeration considering that original figure was an estimate without much to back it up. The real figure was closer to 750 who joined, and of those 750, 260 returned. The actual estimate at this point was closer to 430-460 ISIS fighters from the UK. Not saying that's good, but not quite the level advertised. Considering such low numbers of Muslims joining the UK military, even 10 ISIS fighters would make it a 'decent' fraction. Regardless, it is a problem, but why did these fighters join ISIS? That's the problem that needs solved.
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Look for the answer in Islam; specifically, their religious texts.

Which is exactly where the left doesn't want to go.
 
Darth Hussein Omar said:
Look for the answer in Islam; specifically, their religious texts.

Which is exactly where the left doesn't want to go.
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This is where the comparison to Christianity is valid. The difference w/ the OT in terms of violence & intolerance is negligible.

Then, the natural response is "the OT doesn't count," but it does w/ many Christians.
 
Thing1 said:
This is where the comparison to Christianity is valid. The difference w/ the OT in terms of violence & intolerance is negligible.

Then, the natural response is "the OT doesn't count," but it does w/ many Christians.
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The Koran doesn't have a NT and Christianity doesn't have jihad.
 
Thing1 said:
This is where the comparison to Christianity is valid. The difference w/ the OT in terms of violence & intolerance is negligible.

Then, the natural response is "the OT doesn't count," but it does w/ many Christians.
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yet take a look at an average christian country and an average muslim one.

I will bet you anything gays would prefer to live in a christian country than a muslim one.
 
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