The Muslim Problem
- Thread starter tsuke
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DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
This is what I mean by lip service though. Our actions have not been for truth, and we aren't really separating extremists from the rest by covering up reality. The actions of individuals should not and should never reflect as if they represent a larger entity just because they follow or belong to those entities. Do these rapists represent all men? I think not! They should have been reported and these men should have received justice. However, I also know that rape is generally under-reported, and there are many reasons people don't ever admit to being raped. That's another problem we need to find a root cause for in another discussion, but it's a variable in this discussion as well.
Not only that, but when a 1/3rd to 1/2 of the population of the United States still feel that there isn't much of a difference between a Muslim and a member of ISIS, we not only failed on our approach, we failed to execute. When Donald Trump can take over the Republican party simply by telling people he's gonna shut out Muslims and Mexicans, do you really think we ever convinced our populace that there is a difference and they should be thought of as separate entities? I can guarantee that the majority of the voters who voted for him aren't thinking of long term strategies if defeating ISIS, but they are mostly isolationists who fear the rest of the world.
I can't say that it has failed, because like I said, I don't even feel like it's been executed. Just screaming at each other when someone shows signs of being prejudice towards a religion isn't even close to fulfilling the approach. You can honestly tell them that terrorists are the wrong ones and Islam isn't represented by that group of terrorists by simply accepting that religion can be easily bastardized and used to brainwash, no matter which text is used. Religion relies a lot on Faith and not observational data, and when you have people putting their heart and soul into something they don't fully understand, you can easily sway them off onto a destructive course. Christians can be blamed equally as much for the KKK, as Muslims can be for ISIS. The texts were used to mold the minds of the weak down a destructive course. But that doesn't mean that the the main religions are to be blamed, it's just that they people must accept the fact that it happens. It's really not hard for me to understand the differences between a mainstream Christian and a member of the KKK. But, we can't accept ignorance as an excuse to be OK with alienating an entire religion. Just because most people do not understand Islam enough to see the differences between a mainstream Muslim and a member of ISIS, doesn't mean we should just be OK with lumping them all together.
I would beg to differ on Christianity accepting gays. It isn't at a point yet where I think that is actually true. Some churches are pretty open with it, but there are still enough preaching hatred towards gays that I would say we aren't there yet. Unless, of course, mainstream Christians just stop accepting these churches of hate as a legit church. The Muslim world does separate themselves from ISIS, and actively preach against it. Trust me though, I have more I disagree with in Islam than I do with Christianity, but I separate those discussions out, because that isn't really what this is about. We need to make sure we support the Muslims who actively fight ISIS, and not alienate them. It would be silly to think there are not Muslims fighting them. Just as I'll support Christian churches who are open, and actively preach against the hatred preached at other churches.
Or the majority of that one-fifth could choose to definetvly side with us and sell out the terrorists.
just on the last part ill reply to the rest later. Was christianity more or less accepting of gays after they were publicly shamed for not?
They are not going to side with someone who insinuates that they are evil terrorists and that there is a fundamental problem with their religion.
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
Of course, Christianity has begun to adopt morals that a rational society had already adopted and put into law
yet there is still a steady stream of them joining ISIS in the ME and getting radicalized at home. In Britain of muslims said that being gay should be a CRIME and the same number of british muslims join the army as do join ISIS.
You may find these outliers as you will find mosques who offer platitudes and feign shock when a terror attack happens but then they stay silent until the next terror attack and do the same words of comfort. till the next one. because there really is no penalty for not doing so. Democrats will defend Islam to the death no matter what heinous things it does so they get a pass for everything.
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Canceled
It's funny that you equate defending the constitution & basic rights w/ defending Islam.
Conservatives talk a big game on liberty, but a lot of them are really just fascists.
Of course, Christianity has begun to adopt morals that a rational society had already adopted and put into law
well then we have a previous approach that has been proven to work. Why are we not applying it here?
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
I'd be interested in seeing that represented in facts/statistics about the British Muslims. I would not doubt that some of them join ISIS because of cultural disagreements, but I wouldn't think that it's that high of a ratio.
This is where the problem is glaring! These are not 'outliers', and the majority of the Muslim world does not agree, and actively fights, ISIS. They don't stay silent either. Just because people choose to be ignorant of that fact, doesn't mean the Muslim world is getting a pass, it means they've got a hell of a battle. Fighting off extremists while dealing with ignorance of non-Muslims who would just as likely want them killed without knowing a thing about them.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/
http://www.theguardian.com/news/rea...-trump-needs-check-facts-british-muslims-isis
here this is the guardian. 1500 joined ISIS and only 600ish in the british army
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
This apple you are speaking of is not Orange, and not quite a circle. How do we force Muslim churches to reject prejudices against our culture? Our laws apply to them just as much as they do Christian churches. You are comparing a law that was passed that forced inclusion with a law to force exclusion. It's not nearly as close in resemblance as you are seeing it.
how did we force christian churches to do it? they got shamed. If democrats treated Islam the same way they treat christianity there would be less terrorists as we would make it clear the hate they have for gays is not acceptable. Instead we have seminars on how feminism is compatible with Islam :/
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Didn't you support the invasion of Iraq?
they dont say silent in polls and in some "demonstrations" yet when push comes to shove there is still a steady stream of recruits to ISIS and homegrown terrorists. 50% of brits muslims still believe that being gay should be a crime and a significant portion of american muslims still believe that we should be under sharia law. At the end of the day we must force the mto integrate to sever the connection with ISIS.
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
Actually a Supreme Court ruling declared Gay marriage as a right. The church actively rejected Gay marriage up until that point. It wasn't the shame that made them change, it was the law that did.
I do agree with this. I do feel democrats are too light on Muslims for some of their beliefs, and give them a pass too often for the things they preach. But that's a different discussion. Muslim churches are not allowed to discriminate against gays either. As far as the entire religion being blamed for an extremist group though, I still don't agree on that. They are fighting against ISIS, and ISIS is fighting them too. That's chosen ignorance to ignore that.
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
I feel you are choosing to be ignorant on this. 34 Muslim lead countries are in a coalition fighting ISIS, and the Muslim world has actively denounced ISIS. I believe that point has been made and backed with evidence.
DigitalDave
Sexy Beast!
1st step to understanding is to throw out the false dichotomy of saying "radical Islam" or "violent extremists."
Both factors are in play. forget the politicians who refuse to say this. Idiots like Obama merely muddy the discussion
Salafi jihadism = is radical Islam put into play thru violent means.
Then spend some time understanding both what Islam is (the sects),and what we call them - or they call themselves
is more insight into their means and goals.
For ex. the split between AQ and ISIS -why is that?
also understand nationalism is part of some ( not all)of this -like the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood -which wants to take over
Egypt from a secular society based on Sharia law to one of imposition of Sharia into the institutions themselves.
This is a good link Tom posted http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html
Both factors are in play. forget the politicians who refuse to say this. Idiots like Obama merely muddy the discussion
Salafi jihadism = is radical Islam put into play thru violent means.
Then spend some time understanding both what Islam is (the sects),and what we call them - or they call themselves
is more insight into their means and goals.
For ex. the split between AQ and ISIS -why is that?
also understand nationalism is part of some ( not all)of this -like the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood -which wants to take over
Egypt from a secular society based on Sharia law to one of imposition of Sharia into the institutions themselves.
This is a good link Tom posted http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/etc/modern.html