Do we like capitalism based on the fantasy of it?

It's not a partisan thing it's a principle thing. I don't support a populist demigoding liberal. To each his own who they want to support but I'm not selling out my values to support Trump. The U.S. didn't become the most powerful country on the planet because it closed off its borders to the rest of the world.

Except no one is talking about closing off our borders to the rest of the world. We are talking about protecting our borders and economic interests. That's not isolation. That's being smart and adopting sensible policy that helps our nation instead of harming it.

The opposition to Trump is mostly emotional in nature. The complaints exaggerated or based on political ideology. Most Americans are not politically ideological. They just want a decent job that can pay the bills and provide a comfortable lifestyle. They don't care about conservatism vs liberalism.
 
Except no one is talking about closing off our borders to the rest of the world. We are talking about protecting our borders and economic interests. That's not isolation. That's being smart and adopting sensible policy that helps our nation instead of harming it.

The opposition to Trump is mostly emotional in nature. The complaints exaggerated or based on political ideology. Most Americans are not politically ideological. They just want a decent job that can pay the bills and provide a comfortable lifestyle. They don't care about conservatism vs liberalism.

It's not emotional my man. Like I said to each his own but I support free market principles which is what made our country the best. Trump has no principles which is what's frightening. Everything is a negotiation. You put a lot of faith he's going to stick to what he says now.
 
It's not emotional my man. Like I said to each his own but I support free market principles which is what made our country the best. Trump has no principles which is what's frightening. Everything is a negotiation. You put a lot of faith he's going to stick to what he says now.

I said it was either emotional or based on political ideology.

Perhaps with you it is more ideologicaly driven. Though I should point out there really wasn't much difference between the policies of Cruz and Trump. Both men took a hard line against illegal immigration, support building the wall and enforcing immigration law. Both men wanted to protect manufacturing jobs. Trump just wants to tax the corporations who move abroad to manufacture directly where as Cruz wants to put a 16% tariff on all imported goods.

So aside from emotional reasons - I don't really see much reason why Cruz supporters shouldn't get on board with Trump. This is assuming you were a Cruz supporter of course.
 
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I said it was either emotional or based on political ideology.

Perhaps with you it is more ideologicaly driven. Though I should point out there really wasn't much difference between the policies of Cruz and Trump. Both men took a hard line against illegal immigration, support building the wall and enforcing immigration law. Both men wanted to protect manufacturing jobs. Trump just wants to tax the corporations who move abroad to manufacture directly where as Cruz wants to put a 16% tariff on all imported goods.

So aside from emotional reasons - I don't really see much reason why Cruz supporters shouldn't get on board with Trump. This is assuming you were a Cruz supporter of course.

I wasn't a Cruz supporter but Cruz and Trump are very different. Cruz is straight conservative down the line. And he supports free trade, free markets no corporate welfare etc.
 
I wasn't a Cruz supporter but Cruz and Trump are very different. Cruz is straight conservative down the line. And he supports free trade, free markets no corporate welfare etc.

Yes they are very different, but both proposed very similar campaign themes. That was my point. They mostly agreed on the issues.

As far as supporting free trade - that's a dubious statement that can mean all sorts of things. Cruz opposed the TPP during this campaign and supported a 16% tax on imported goods as a way to protect manufacturing jobs. So I"m not sure what you mean when you say he supports free trade. He also said he would rewrite NAFTA.

And between Cruz and Trump - that literally is almost the entire Republican base. So clearly the people are not aligned with the Republican Establishment's position on so-called free trade.
 
Yes they are very different, but both proposed very similar campaign themes. That was my point. They mostly agreed on the issues.

As far as supporting free trade - that's a dubious statement that can mean all sorts of things. Cruz opposed the TPP during this campaign and supported a 16% tax on imported goods as a way to protect manufacturing jobs. So I"m not sure what you mean when you say he supports free trade. He also said he would rewrite NAFTA.

And between Cruz and Trump - that literally is almost the entire Republican base. So clearly the people are not aligned with the Republican Establishment's position on so-called free trade.

Cruz supports free trade. Yes he flipped on TPP for political reasons unfortunately but that was a flip flop, not his belief.
 
M'eh - that last comment just shows that you haven't paid much attention to a lot of what's been said on this thread. I'm very conflicted about it, and see it as a very complex issue. I certainly am not distilling it down to "capitalism bad."

There are undeniable facts, however. Like I said, I think the system worked better for most 50-60 years ago. We now have a system that a small few are basically gaming - making huge amounts of money for themselves, and usually in a way that has little or no benefit for the masses, and even in ways that hurt the average working American. I don't think this is a shallow comment or unoriginal - it's just a fact. I mean, we have insurance companies who have quotas for denial of coverage, because profit is the motive. There are examples like that in almost every industry.

Is that what a nation of 300 million really wants? Because that's what it comes down to. Everything we choose to do is a social contract among all of us - what do we want for ourselves? Do we really want a system that is set up to greatly benefit a very small % of us, so that the rest of us struggle & usually fail to truly get ahead?

You are just rehashing the same old mindless drivel. Whether it is the top 1% this or two Americas that.

I would argue that we are less of a capitalist free market system than people think.

That people game the system is less about capitalism than it is about immoral people and the politicians who also game the system.

Your argument is extremely flawed. First of all there are those who are quite content to just get by. See Watermark. He doesn't want to do what he needs to do to succeed but it is always someone else's fault.

Mindlessly blaming a system is just silly. But I am sure that in your circles this kind of shit you are posting passes for intelligence.
 
Here you go Dale. An excellent column on what a Trump economy would look like and why you're hoped for 1950's manufacturing revival won't occur.




Trump Would Crush the Winners of the U.S. Economy


Donald Trump says it all the time: “We don’t win anymore.” If you got all your economic news from the presumed Republican nominee, you’d think U.S. businesses hadn’t added any new jobs or accomplished anything worthwhile since sometime in the Johnson administration. Americans nowadays, he keeps suggesting, are total losers.

While Trump’s rhetoric denigrates the achievements of U.S. companies and their millions of employees, his specific proposals are worse. They reveal a vision of the good economy as static, uninnovative and controlled from the White House. President Trump’s America is, despite the rhetoric, an economy with no place for winners.

Start with the candidate’s pettiest proposal: his not-so-veiled threat to unleash antitrust regulators against Amazon to punish CEO Jeff Bezos, who owns for The Washington Post, for the newspaper’s negative coverage of his campaign. To serve his personal agenda, Trump would rewrite U.S. antitrust doctrine. Forget protecting consumers from cartels; he would instead protect businesses from competition. And he would side with foreign governments against an American winner.

Like Google and Facebook, Amazon is under attack by European antitrust regulators. If Trump were really the economic nationalist he plays on TV, he would be defending these U.S. stars. But in his picture of the economy, these companies simply don’t count, perhaps because they weren’t around during his 1980s business heyday. Trump is neither pro-market nor pro-business, the usual Republican choices. He’s just pro-Trump.

He’s also oblivious to most U.S. success stories. On just about any list of excellence -- the most admired companies, the most valuable brands, the world’s supply-chain leaders -- U.S. enterprises dominate. Nike has even surpassed long-time champion Louis Vuitton as the world’s most valuable apparel brand, a triumph for American culture as well as a U.S. business. The chemists coming up with new products at 3M or Procter & Gamble are no more important to Trump than the FedEx and UPS drivers delivering packages, the longshoremen offloading cargo at the ports of Long Beach and Charleston, the animators creating new films for Pixar, or the buyers finding bargains for T.J. Maxx. Whether you work for a U.S. company or a foreign company with U.S. operations, if you’re a successful player in a global supply chain, you simply don’t exist to him.


This is a candidate who promised to bring big steel back to Pittsburgh without considering why it disappeared. In Trump’s version of the economy, the only threat to established industries comes from diabolical foreigners and stupid U.S. trade negotiators. (Never mind that Chinese steelmakers already face nearly 500 percent punitive tariffs for corrosion-resistant products, with more tariffs for other types of steel potentially on the way.) He can’t imagine disruption that comes from changing demand or better ideas.

In Trump’s America, there were no minimills reinventing American steel, and taking market share from the old stalwarts, by recycling scrap into lower-cost, increasingly valuable products. In Trump’s America, there were no auto companies lightening their cars by reducing the amount of steel they contain -- no Ford betting big on aluminum trucks, certainly nobody thinking about carbon fiber. And, of course, in Trump’s America nobody minds that raising the price of steel hurts every U.S. company that uses it, be it a construction firm or a medical-instrument maker, and every consumer who buys from them.

The candidate’s promise to slap a 35 percent tariff on Carrier air conditioners and parts made in Mexico reveals the same blind spot. Every U.S. company buying HVAC equipment for its office, factory or server farm (not to mention Americans cooling their homes, hospitals, churches and schools) would be hurt. In the hope of recreating a bygone ideal of what “winning” looks like -- 1950s industrial production protected from global competition -- Trump would punish the actual winners in the U.S.

Bemoaning “today’s reactionary politics” a decade ago, Brink Lindsey observed in the New Republic that “the rival ideologies of left and right are both pining for the ’50s. The only difference is that liberals want to work there, while conservatives want to go home there.” As a Republican candidate, Trump has upended that distinction, largely jettisoning social conservatism in favor of a nostalgic economic view that ignores, denigrates or actively attacks the sources of strength, and jobs, in the U.S. economy.

Both supporters and critics have likened Trump to the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, “the form of the Destructor,” in Ghostbusters. It’s an apt comparison. He’s oblivious to the life he’s crushing as he bumbles around.


http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-24/trump-would-crush-the-winners-of-the-u-s-economy
 
American businesses have put profits above the lives of Americans and the stability of society in general with their globalist tendencies, outsourcing, insourcing, promoting illegal immigration. They should be punished as traitorousness is no virtue.
 
A卐卐HatZombie;1621022 said:
American businesses have put profits above the lives of Americans and the stability of society in general with their globalist tendencies, outsourcing, outsourcing, promoting illegal immigration. They should be punished as traitorousness is no virtue.

:dunno:
 
Globalization zealotry only benefits corporations and dehumanized the rest of humanity.

In other words it's gay and stupid.

People for it are brainwashed anti human population reduction Nazis.
 
Great response, and an aspect that I think is important to the discussion. What's the alternative? What else has worked as well? I agree that the answer is nothing, really. At least not yet. And I don't have an answer for what COULD work better, but I do believe there is something. Maybe some sort of modified system that takes the best of a lot of theories and combines them somehow. I really don't know - I just know that capitalism feels almost like it's done it's job & gotten us to this point, but is outliving its usefulness. It's simply not working for many people, probably the majority of people.

Capitalism has been largely characterized by abuse in America's lifetime. There were the early days, even up until the mid-20th century, when there were the robber barons, and no worker protections. Low wages, haves & have nots, all of that. Then, around the 50's and 60's, it seemed to really hit its stride - working for almost everyone, no CEO's making inflated salaries, no "too big to fail." Then the '80's hit, and it's been downhill since. A small group making a ton of money, and often at the EXPENSE of those in the lower classes, and not benefiting those classes. Actually hurting most people for the gain of a few.
Cooperativism, which is a combination of Capitalism and Socialism
 
Teflon Don Trump can't bring factory jobs back unless he recreates the manufacturing and trade environment that followed WWII.

Most industrialized nations were bombed out and had severe labor/materiel shortages after 6 years of global conflict.

America suffered no loss of industrial capacity, returning troops made labor cheap and abundant, and retooled factories switched to peacetime production for eager consumers who'd been starved of goods for years.

America also enjoyed a near-total supply and distribution monopoly for years. All those Merchant Marine Liberty ships went private and carried American products to the occupied conquered territories and allies who'd suffered crippling losses alike.

I guess Teflon Don could bomb our competition into the Stone Age, but they might shoot back.
 
Teflon Don Trump can't bring factory jobs back unless he recreates the manufacturing and trade environment that followed WWII.

Most industrialized nations were bombed out and had severe labor/materiel shortages after 6 years of global conflict.

America suffered no loss of industrial capacity, returning troops made labor cheap and abundant, and retooled factories switched to peacetime production for eager consumers who'd been starved of goods for years.

America also enjoyed a near-total supply and distribution monopoly for years. All those Merchant Marine Liberty ships went private and carried American products to the occupied conquered territories and allies who'd suffered crippling losses alike.

I guess Teflon Don could bomb our competition into the Stone Age, but they might shoot back.

Wrong. We can institute tariffs and revitalize American industry.

Your assertions are all wrong and only indicate your hatred for humanity and your general stupidity.

Other nations would also like to control their resources and not be raped by multinational corporations and have their people reduced to slaves.


Globalization stupidity only benefits this large corporations and fucks over everyone else.
 
A卐卐HatZombie;1621045 said:
Wrong. We can institute tariffs and revitalize American industry. Your assertions are all wrong and only indicate your hatred for humanity and your general stupidity. Other nations would also like to control their resources and not be raped by multinational corporations and have their people reduced to slaves. Globalization stupidity only benefits this large corporations and fucks over everyone else.

Prove it.

I'll understand if you can't.
 
A卐卐HatZombie;1621052 said:
Note all collapsing economies, and the increase in income disparity. Yeah globalization is really working, oaf.

What "collapsing economies" are those, Chicken Little?

Name them.

I'll understand if you can't.
 
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