Do we like capitalism based on the fantasy of it?

[cawacko]

Its not just one quarter. Our economic growth has been pathetic for years, which would not be the case if these trade policies truly were such a boon to our economic growth.

And no: technology did not do away with these jobs. There are still manufacturing jobs and we still make things. We just build them in other countries now instead of here because businesses can get away with paying the workers there crap wages there because they live in corrupt piss holes with governments that don't give two shits about their people.

For example: Apple (about as technological as it gets) has a vast manufacturing sector. They just manufacture in China instead of America. So it's not technology that's the problem. It's greed.

Again, it's not trade that is the cause of our slow economic growth. You've shown no correlation for that. Businesses have moved basic manufacturing jobs off shore because it makes economic sense. You can call it greed but it's what businesses have been doing since the beginning of time.

And yes technology/automation had done away with numerous manufacturing jobs and will continue to do so as we build robots that can do more, driverless cars etc.

We aren't going back to a time when a guy with a high school diploma only goes and works in a factory for 30 years and lives a middle class lifestyle. In the Information Age knowledge is king.

 

[Dale]

Again, it's not trade that is the cause of our slow economic growth. You've shown no correlation for that. Businesses have moved basic manufacturing jobs off shore because it makes economic sense. You can call it greed but it's what businesses have been doing since the beginning of time.

And yes technology/automation had done away with numerous manufacturing jobs and will continue to do so as we build robots that can do more, driverless cars etc.

We aren't going back to a time when a guy with a high school diploma only goes and works in a factory for 30 years and lives a middle class lifestyle. In the Information Age knowledge is king.

Why not?

There are still factories they could work in. We have just moved them all to China, Mexico etc. Those are factories that could be here instead so people coming out of high school could go to work in.

Even the most technologically advanced businesses in the world (such as Apple I gave as an example) still have manufacturing plants that use people (not just robots) to manufacture their products. They are just all in China instead of America so they can pay those workers less. So the robot argument doesn't hold much weight with me.

I am very familiar with how products are manufactured today. And while yes - automation and machines are used - there is still a great many amount of people who are still needed to operate and repair those machines. Factories do not move to China and Mexico because there are more robots there.

You think it makes economic sense to offshore our manufacturing sector. But the stats don't agree with you. These policies have not been growing our economy. They have done the opposite.

 

[Granule]

I'm hoping for some serious discussion on this, so if you need to get the "commie liberal" comments off your chest, try to limit them to a post or 2.

I'm actually a pure capitalist. I love capitalism - I love determining my own income. More than anything, I love the idea that I can be wealthy someday if I really apply myself to it. And I think that's why many like capitalism - we all think we can be rich.

But how realistic is that? The percentages do not lie. A very small few of us actually get rich, and the vast majority of the population - a # that continues to grow - continues to wallow in the lower-to-mid classes, and see their buying power erode as wages stagnate and they accrue more & more debt to try to pay for a modest lifestyle that is still above their means.

Beyond that, that small few is calling more & more of the shots. Spending millions in Washington, helping to get politicians elected, and helping to write laws.

I feel like we're all being pretty gullible, and doing exactly what those who really pull the strings want us to do. It might be time to consider the possibility that capitalism just isn't working.

Why trash Capitalism itself? Wouldn't you much rather go after the manipulators of that system instead?

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Why trash Capitalism itself? Wouldn't you much rather go after the manipulators of that system instead?

Well, there's the rub. They write the laws, they control the politicians & the control the money. So where do you begin?

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Again, it's not trade that is the cause of our slow economic growth. You've shown no correlation for that. Businesses have moved basic manufacturing jobs off shore because it makes economic sense. You can call it greed but it's what businesses have been doing since the beginning of time.

And yes technology/automation had done away with numerous manufacturing jobs and will continue to do so as we build robots that can do more, driverless cars etc.

We aren't going back to a time when a guy with a high school diploma only goes and works in a factory for 30 years and lives a middle class lifestyle. In the Information Age knowledge is king.

I don't know enough about what is happening to all of those jobs overseas, but there was a pretty knowledgeable group of industry people on one of the shows the other night, and they were pretty insistent that all of the jobs that Trump is promising to bring back to the states simply aren't there any more. Most have been automated.

 

[Dale]

Well, there's the rub. They write the laws, they control the politicians & the control the money. So where do you begin?

They are losing their grip so there is cause to be optimistic.

Both Trump and Sanders are quite popular in this country. Both men have made standing up to corporate interests and putting an end to these greed-trade practices foremost in their campaigns.

So if you want to know where to begin? You can start by doing what millions of the rest of us are doing. Support Trump or Sanders for president.

 

[Dale]

I don't know enough about what is happening to all of those jobs overseas, but there was a pretty knowledgeable group of industry people on one of the shows the other night, and they were pretty insistent that all of the jobs that Trump is promising to bring back to the states simply aren't there any more. Most have been automated.

I would not pay much attention to that corporate propaganda on the media.

The jobs are still there. They are just shipping them to other countries like Mexico and China. For example: there was a textile plant here they just shipped off to Mexico. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. Now Mexicans are working at that plant. Not robots. A continental plant here is all set to follow suit in 4 years. They even bring in future Mexican workers to visit the plant and see how the work is done. They aren't robots either.

It's all about the cheap labor. The robot argument is just corporate propaganda.

 

[cawacko]

I would not pay much attention to that corporate propaganda on the media.

The jobs are still there. They are just shipping them to other countries like Mexico and China. For example: there was a textile plant here they just shipped off to Mexico. Hundreds of people lost their jobs. Now Mexicans are working at that plant. Not robots. A continental plant here is all set to follow suit in 4 years. They even bring in future Mexican workers to visit the plant and see how the work is done. They aren't robots either.

It's all about the cheap labor. The robot argument is just corporate propaganda.

Robots will be a reality, not corporate propaganda. I'm not in any way suggesting robots will take all future jobs but I am saying they will do more and more of the work humans used to do going forward.

I'll use the Nike shoes example again. It doesn't make sense for Nike to pay workers $25/hr plus benefits to make their shoes (plus all other expenses that go along with it) when they can pay workers else $1/hr. If there was added value for having American workers make them Nike would use America workers but there aren't. You don't see Nike off shoring corporate management or its marketing team however. That's what's done here. Same with Apple and most of the others.

We are in a global economy and technology has made the world flat. We aren't going back to the 1960's.

 

[Dale]

Robots will be a reality, not corporate propaganda. I'm not in any way suggesting robots will take all future jobs but I am saying they will do more and more of the work humans used to do going forward.

I'll use the Nike shoes example again. It doesn't make sense for Nike to pay workers $25/hr plus benefits to make their shoes .

I'm going to stop here Cawacko.

What Nike worker is asking for 25$ an hour plus benefits to manufacture shoes?

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

They are losing their grip so there is cause to be optimistic.

Both Trump and Sanders are quite popular in this country. Both men have made standing up to corporate interests and putting an end to these greed-trade practices foremost in their campaigns.

So if you want to know where to begin? You can start by doing what millions of the rest of us are doing. Support Trump or Sanders for president.

Bernie can't win. I will vote 3rd party though, for whatever that will be worth.

Trump is a fraud. He won't fight the monied interests. He is a monied interest. He has somehow positioned himself as a champion of the working man, even though he never was one and is as far away from the working class as it's possible to be.

 

[Dale]

Bernie can't win. I will vote 3rd party though, for whatever that will be worth.

Trump is a fraud. He won't fight the monied interests. He is a monied interest. He has somehow positioned himself as a champion of the working man, even though he never was one and is as far away from the working class as it's possible to be.

I believe Mr. Sanders could have won if the system not been rigged against him (super delegates, closed primaries).

As far as Mr. Trump being a fraud - you should give him a chance to prove that first. To just assume he has no intention of following through on his policies is ungenerous at best, especially considering your 3rd party option has no chance at success and Mrs. Clinton certainly won't stand up to corporate interests.

So I don't understand your reasoning here.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

I believe Mr. Sanders could have won if the system not been rigged against him (super delegates, closed primaries).

As far as Mr. Trump being a fraud - you should give him a chance to prove that first. To just assume he has no intention of following through on his policies is ungenerous at best, especially considering your 3rd party option has no chance at success and Mrs. Clinton certainly won't stand up to corporate interests.

So I don't understand your reasoning here.

I know a con artist when I see one. I don't need to give him my country for 4 years to prove it, especially considering the implications of what he could do in that time.

He says whatever he needs to say depending on what audience he is talking to. I've already lost count of the # of issues he has contradicted himself on. He is in so far over his head, but he's a great con man, so knows how to present his BS in a crowd-friendly way.

I see right through this guy. Everyone should. He's a fraud, and nothing more. In it for himself 100%.

 

[Dale]

I know a con artist when I see one. I don't need to give him my country for 4 years to prove it, especially considering the implications of what he could do in that time.

Well I disagree. He has been pretty consistent when it comes to his stance against greed-trade and the off-shoring of our manufacturing jobs. I remember him railing against it long before he started running for President.

My advice: I wouldn't allow the political pundits to distract you or get you caught up in the personal drama of the election.. That's how they stay in power - they try to convince the other side their guy is the antichrist so they can keep us nice and divided.

Vote on policy. If the politician doesn't follow through, vote him out next time and find someone new. I wouldn't waste your vote because you believe you know what's inside the heart of Donald Trump.

 

[Cancel 2020.1]

Well I disagree. He has been pretty consistent when it comes to his stance against greed-trade and the off-shoring of our manufacturing jobs. I remember him railing against it long before he started running for President.

My advice: I wouldn't allow the political pundits to distract you or get you caught up in the personal drama of the election.. That's how they stay in power - they try to convince the other side their guy is the antichrist so they can keep us nice and divided.

Vote on policy. If the politician doesn't follow through, vote him out next time and find someone new.

I know what you're trying to say. I just feel very strongly about Trump; it's not the media, either. I've been familiar w/ Trump for a long time.

Trump is in it for Trump. I understand a lot of the support for him, but I just think it's based upon a false hope of what he presents himself to be.

I think he'll get elected, so I'll hope I'm wrong, and hope for the best if he does.

 

[Dale]

I know what you're trying to say. I just feel very strongly about Trump; it's not the media, either. I've been familiar w/ Trump for a long time.

Trump is in it for Trump. I understand a lot of the support for him, but I just think it's based upon a false hope of what he presents himself to be.

I think he'll get elected, so I'll hope I'm wrong, and hope for the best if he does.

At least with Trump you have a chance at slapping a 35% tax on businesses that move offshore to manufacture. With Mrs. Clinton there is no chance - because she isn't even talking about doing it.

I say give the guy chance. You have to start somewhere. If it turns out you were right and he was lying his off - then his support will dry up almost instantly and he'll become a powerless President. Because Trump is a populists not an establishment politician. His power comes from the people - and the minute he loses that he'll be done. He has no political power in the Republican Establishment to further his ends.

 

[cawacko]

At least with Trump you have a chance at slapping a 35% tax on businesses that move offshore to manufacture. With Mrs. Clinton there is no chance

You think Congress is going to approve that?

Between trade wars, tariffs and new taxes Trump is going to fvck up the economy.

 

[Dale]

Our economy is already fucked up. We have 100's of billions of dollars in trade deficits all across the globe and its bankrupting us. Our economy is not growing at the rate needed to sustain our government. So we either fix it - or drastically scale back our quality of life. I vote for the former.

And yes - I believe if Trump were elected he would have a powerful mandate to take to congress (especially the Republicans). He has the Republican base behind him at the moment, and that's a powerful political tool if wielded skillfully. The Republican Establishment is already on very thin ice with their constituents. So they would oppose him at their peril.

 

[cawacko]

Our economy is already fucked up. We have 100's of billions of dollars in trade deficits all across the globe and its bankrupting us. Our economy is not growing at the rate needed to sustain our government. So we either fix it

You'll get no disagreement from me that we need to do more to make our economy grow. A trade war isn't how you do it however. Trump has no mandate right now nor does he have the full backing of the Republican establishment. Unfortunately more seem to be coming around to him but at the moment the #nevertrump movement still has slight sway.

 

[Dale]

I didn't mention a trade war in my comments. Though I would not be opposed to a so-called trade war if necessary. It makes little sense to keep trading with someone if it is costing our country hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

I was referring to Trump's proposal to slap corporations who move off shore to manufacture with a 35% tax. That really doesn't have anything to do with trade.

If we can tax people for not buying health insurance, we sure as hell should be able to tax them for moving their factories to other countries.

The #neverTrump movement is irrelevant really. It's mostly just disgruntled partisans and bruised egos. The movement behind Trump transcends political parties or establishment politics. He is just the mouth piece of a rising tide in this country that is sick of corporate interests taking precedent over the needs of the people. We are a democracy first - capitalist country second. And it's time the politicians in Washington were reminded of that.

 

[cawacko]

I didn't mention a trade war in my comments. Though I would not be opposed to a so-called trade war if necessary. It makes little sense to keep trading with someone if it is costing our country hundreds of billions of dollars each year.

I was referring to Trump's proposal to slap corporations who move off shore to manufacture with a 35% tax. That really doesn't have anything to do with trade.

If we can tax people for not buying health insurance, we sure as hell should be able to tax them for moving their factories to other countries.

The #neverTrump movement is irrelevant really. It's mostly just disgruntled partisans and bruised egos. The movement behind Trump transcends political parties or establishment politics. He is just the mouth piece of a rising tide in this country that is sick of corporate interests taking precedent over the needs of the people. We are a democracy first - capitalist country second. And it's time the politicians in Washington were reminded of that.

It's not a partisan thing it's a principle thing. I don't support a populist demigoding liberal. To each his own who they want to support but I'm not selling out my values to support Trump. The U.S. didn't become the most powerful country on the planet because it closed off its borders to the rest of the world.