Economic Nostalgia

cawacko

Well-known member
Short but well stated and to the point about the (false) dreams of a manufacturing renaissance.




US politics is badly infected with economic nostalgia


The current state of American politics has led to a rediscovery of working-class philosopher Eric Hoffer. Probably Hoffer’s most well-known work is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements,” published in 1951. As a recent Daily Beast story on his new found relevance explains, “Hoffer’s big insight was that the followers of Nazism and Communism were essentially the same sort of true believers, the most zealous acolytes of religious, nationalist, and other mass movements throughout history.”

Hoffer is amazingly quotable — and tweetable for that matter. Here’s one a bit of wisdom that seems particularly applicable at the moment: “All mass movements deprecate the present, and there is no more potent dwarfing of the present than by viewing it as a mere link between a glorious past and a glorious future.”

Preach. I’ve written frequently about the economic nostalgia that has infected American politics — on the left and right — along with the ridiculously gloomy assessment of today. For instance, here is Donald Trump recently: “I think we were a very powerful, very wealthy country. And we’re a poor country now. ”

Of course America remains an incredibly powerful and prosperous and innovative nation, a nation with the strong military and a net worth of nearly $100 trillion. And American living standards are certainly higher today than a generation ago, much less two generations ago.

One weird offshoot of all this is the obsession with manufacturing jobs as a key metric of America’s health. Back to the 1950s and 1960s! In a recent column, New York Times’ reporter Eduardo Porter writes at length about the myth of the manufacturing jobs renaissance:


"""No matter how high the tariffs Mr. Trump wants to raise to encircle the American economy, he will not be able to produce a manufacturing renaissance at home. Neither would changing tax rules to limit corporate flight from the United States, as Mrs. Clinton proposes. … Look at it this way: Over the course of the 20th century, farm employment in the United States dropped to 2 percent of the work force from 41 percent, even as output soared. Since 1950, manufacturing’s share has shrunk to 8.5 percent of nonfarm jobs, from 24 percent. It still has a ways to go. The shrinking of manufacturing employment is global. In other words, strategies to restore manufacturing jobs in one country will amount to destroying them in another, in a worldwide zero-sum game."""

And me:


"""So when Trump says he wants to force Apple to make its products in America, what he’s really unintentionally saying is that he wants American robots to do the work of Chinese robots. President Trump can raise all the tariff walls he wants — manufacturing jobs lost to Asia aren’t coming back in any sense that Trump means. Going forward, it’s automation, not globalization, that poses the bigger risk to the economic security of the American labor force. And unlike off-shoring, robots and super-smart software will affect both manufacturing and service jobs."""



http://www.aei.org/publication/us-politics-is-badly-infected-with-economic-nostalgia/
 
Great article, and spot on.

Trump's foreign policy talk yesterday was hopelessly naive, and his views on trade are naive & antiquated. His supporters suffer from wanting to believe too much, so they just accept his paternalistic assurance that he'll fix all the problems, and quickly.
 
Great article, and spot on.

Trump's foreign policy talk yesterday was hopelessly naive, and his views on trade are naive & antiquated. His supporters suffer from wanting to believe too much, so they just accept his paternalistic assurance that he'll fix all the problems, and quickly.

And how is it any different than Bernies supporters who think they will get "free college" or Obamas supporters.

I am not defending Trump not do I support him. Merely saying that you are incredibly myopic in your analysis
 
And how is it any different than Bernies supporters who think they will get "free college" or Obamas supporters.

I am not defending Trump not do I support him. Merely saying that you are incredibly myopic in your analysis

How is it "myopic"? The thread is specifically about Trump, and my response to it was specifically about Trump. Am I supposed to include a detailed analysis of everyone at that level in politics?

I've already states quite a few times that Bernie's math doesn't add up, and that his policies would truly bankrupt us. Good enough for your "they do it too" outlook?
 
Short but well stated and to the point about the (false) dreams of a manufacturing renaissance.




US politics is badly infected with economic nostalgia


The current state of American politics has led to a rediscovery of working-class philosopher Eric Hoffer. Probably Hoffer’s most well-known work is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements,” published in 1951. As a recent Daily Beast story on his new found relevance explains, “Hoffer’s big insight was that the followers of Nazism and Communism were essentially the same sort of true believers, the most zealous acolytes of religious, nationalist, and other mass movements throughout history.”

Hoffer is amazingly quotable — and tweetable for that matter. Here’s one a bit of wisdom that seems particularly applicable at the moment: “All mass movements deprecate the present, and there is no more potent dwarfing of the present than by viewing it as a mere link between a glorious past and a glorious future.”

Preach. I’ve written frequently about the economic nostalgia that has infected American politics — on the left and right — along with the ridiculously gloomy assessment of today. For instance, here is Donald Trump recently: “I think we were a very powerful, very wealthy country. And we’re a poor country now. ”

Of course America remains an incredibly powerful and prosperous and innovative nation, a nation with the strong military and a net worth of nearly $100 trillion. And American living standards are certainly higher today than a generation ago, much less two generations ago.

One weird offshoot of all this is the obsession with manufacturing jobs as a key metric of America’s health. Back to the 1950s and 1960s! In a recent column, New York Times’ reporter Eduardo Porter writes at length about the myth of the manufacturing jobs renaissance:


"""No matter how high the tariffs Mr. Trump wants to raise to encircle the American economy, he will not be able to produce a manufacturing renaissance at home. Neither would changing tax rules to limit corporate flight from the United States, as Mrs. Clinton proposes. … Look at it this way: Over the course of the 20th century, farm employment in the United States dropped to 2 percent of the work force from 41 percent, even as output soared. Since 1950, manufacturing’s share has shrunk to 8.5 percent of nonfarm jobs, from 24 percent. It still has a ways to go. The shrinking of manufacturing employment is global. In other words, strategies to restore manufacturing jobs in one country will amount to destroying them in another, in a worldwide zero-sum game."""

And me:


"""So when Trump says he wants to force Apple to make its products in America, what he’s really unintentionally saying is that he wants American robots to do the work of Chinese robots. President Trump can raise all the tariff walls he wants — manufacturing jobs lost to Asia aren’t coming back in any sense that Trump means. Going forward, it’s automation, not globalization, that poses the bigger risk to the economic security of the American labor force. And unlike off-shoring, robots and super-smart software will affect both manufacturing and service jobs."""



http://www.aei.org/publication/us-politics-is-badly-infected-with-economic-nostalgia/

so people are taking on more cc debt and student loan debt and this article says that everything is all right. So the answer of this article is to keep goign as we are now? Or more trickle down so we can compete with slave labor wages in mexico and india?

The only reason standards of living are so high is because of credit and government freebies. Credit has a limit and we are seeing that already. Our current system is headed for a crash and this article is too blind too see it.
 
so people are taking on more cc debt and student loan debt and this article says that everything is all right. So the answer of this article is to keep goign as we are now? Or more trickle down so we can compete with slave labor wages in mexico and india?

The only reason standards of living are so high is because of credit and government freebies. Credit has a limit and we are seeing that already. Our current system is headed for a crash and this article is too blind too see it.

We are debt free and I can tell you it is a great feeling, we have paid off our home, cars and credit cards, student loans. Now we are ready to retire in the Fall.

I agree with you on this, I know, don't faint.
 
so people are taking on more cc debt and student loan debt and this article says that everything is all right. So the answer of this article is to keep goign as we are now? Or more trickle down so we can compete with slave labor wages in mexico and india?

The only reason standards of living are so high is because of credit and government freebies. Credit has a limit and we are seeing that already. Our current system is headed for a crash and this article is too blind too see it.

1) The U.S. is still the world's economic leader

2) The article explains well why manufacturing jobs aren't coming back despite Trump and Clinton's claims.
 
so people are taking on more cc debt and student loan debt and this article says that everything is all right. So the answer of this article is to keep goign as we are now? Or more trickle down so we can compete with slave labor wages in mexico and india?

The only reason standards of living are so high is because of credit and government freebies. Credit has a limit and we are seeing that already. Our current system is headed for a crash and this article is too blind too see it.

Been having a discussion with my buddy who sent me this yesterday. There will be issues with a Fed induced bubble going forward:



"""I guess my point is that we indeed have experienced lots of inflation, just not where we’re accustomed to seeing it. For example, if before the crisis you could either spend $100 on a dinner today or buy an fixed income asset that would return to you enough to buy two dinners in 10 years, the effect of the fed’s policies is that the asset price has been inflated so that you can now only afford to buy 1.5 dinners in 10 years. That feels like inflation. And I think there are a number of possible explanations for why inflation is manifesting itself in this manner (regulated costs, global competition, energy innovation, commodity glut, money not trickling down, etc.).

But yeah, it seems like we’ve been successful in delaying the pain and folks seem comforted by the fact that we’re not as bad off as Europe, China, etc. But we’re really in uncharted territory here with the size of our debt (doubled over the last 10 years to $19.5 trillion) and the Fed’s balance sheet (from $800 billion before the crisis to $4.5 trillion today, all of which is basically money printing). Even Krugman would say you need a government (or Fed, if you want to maintain the charade) willing to pull back the punch bowl when times are good, and I just don’t have the sense that a gradual return to fiscal and monetary responsibility will be politically achievable with a struggling middle class electorate. So kaboom."""
 
How is it "myopic"? The thread is specifically about Trump, and my response to it was specifically about Trump. Am I supposed to include a detailed analysis of everyone at that level in politics?

I've already states quite a few times that Bernie's math doesn't add up, and that his policies would truly bankrupt us. Good enough for your "they do it too" outlook?

My point is that voters thinking politicians are going to make their dreams come true is not unique to Trump supporters. But if it gives you yet another thing to rage about please do knock your socks off
 
Been having a discussion with my buddy who sent me this yesterday. There will be issues with a Fed induced bubble going forward:



"""I guess my point is that we indeed have experienced lots of inflation, just not where we’re accustomed to seeing it. For example, if before the crisis you could either spend $100 on a dinner today or buy an fixed income asset that would return to you enough to buy two dinners in 10 years, the effect of the fed’s policies is that the asset price has been inflated so that you can now only afford to buy 1.5 dinners in 10 years. That feels like inflation. And I think there are a number of possible explanations for why inflation is manifesting itself in this manner (regulated costs, global competition, energy innovation, commodity glut, money not trickling down, etc.).

But yeah, it seems like we’ve been successful in delaying the pain and folks seem comforted by the fact that we’re not as bad off as Europe, China, etc. But we’re really in uncharted territory here with the size of our debt (doubled over the last 10 years to $19.5 trillion) and the Fed’s balance sheet (from $800 billion before the crisis to $4.5 trillion today, all of which is basically money printing). Even Krugman would say you need a government (or Fed, if you want to maintain the charade) willing to pull back the punch bowl when times are good, and I just don’t have the sense that a gradual return to fiscal and monetary responsibility will be politically achievable with a struggling middle class electorate. So kaboom."""

uhm... just so we are on the same page the public debt is a whole other thing. Im talking about a private debt bubble!
 
We are debt free and I can tell you it is a great feeling, we have paid off our home, cars and credit cards, student loans. Now we are ready to retire in the Fall.

I agree with you on this, I know, don't faint.

its ok. Even people who defend the pepper sprayer of kids have their good points :)
 
Credit card debt while an issue isn't taking down the U.S.

@__@ yes yes it is.

In the olden days people used their card for big ticket purchases because they had the money to survive day to day. Right now our credit cards are being used for day to day expenses like food utilities and rent. If you look at the stats credit card debt increases year on year BUT the number of people with cards decrease. You can see that people drop out of the credit market continously.

Without credit you cant buy tv's and other items like that leading to less demand for them and ultimately less jobs. Right now you may not even be able to survive a month without credit.

Credit card debt directly affects consumer spending which is the biggest part of the economy. If people cant buy they cant generate demand for jobs.

CC debt will bring the US down faster than anything. You know when trump says there will be a crash if he is not president? This is it.
 
Short but well stated and to the point about the (false) dreams of a manufacturing renaissance.




US politics is badly infected with economic nostalgia


The current state of American politics has led to a rediscovery of working-class philosopher Eric Hoffer. Probably Hoffer’s most well-known work is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements,” published in 1951. As a recent Daily Beast story on his new found relevance explains, “Hoffer’s big insight was that the followers of Nazism and Communism were essentially the same sort of true believers, the most zealous acolytes of religious, nationalist, and other mass movements throughout history.”

Hoffer is amazingly quotable — and tweetable for that matter. Here’s one a bit of wisdom that seems particularly applicable at the moment: “All mass movements deprecate the present, and there is no more potent dwarfing of the present than by viewing it as a mere link between a glorious past and a glorious future.”

Preach. I’ve written frequently about the economic nostalgia that has infected American politics — on the left and right — along with the ridiculously gloomy assessment of today. For instance, here is Donald Trump recently: “I think we were a very powerful, very wealthy country. And we’re a poor country now. ”

Of course America remains an incredibly powerful and prosperous and innovative nation, a nation with the strong military and a net worth of nearly $100 trillion. And American living standards are certainly higher today than a generation ago, much less two generations ago.

One weird offshoot of all this is the obsession with manufacturing jobs as a key metric of America’s health. Back to the 1950s and 1960s! In a recent column, New York Times’ reporter Eduardo Porter writes at length about the myth of the manufacturing jobs renaissance:


"""No matter how high the tariffs Mr. Trump wants to raise to encircle the American economy, he will not be able to produce a manufacturing renaissance at home. Neither would changing tax rules to limit corporate flight from the United States, as Mrs. Clinton proposes. … Look at it this way: Over the course of the 20th century, farm employment in the United States dropped to 2 percent of the work force from 41 percent, even as output soared. Since 1950, manufacturing’s share has shrunk to 8.5 percent of nonfarm jobs, from 24 percent. It still has a ways to go. The shrinking of manufacturing employment is global. In other words, strategies to restore manufacturing jobs in one country will amount to destroying them in another, in a worldwide zero-sum game."""

And me:


"""So when Trump says he wants to force Apple to make its products in America, what he’s really unintentionally saying is that he wants American robots to do the work of Chinese robots. President Trump can raise all the tariff walls he wants — manufacturing jobs lost to Asia aren’t coming back in any sense that Trump means. Going forward, it’s automation, not globalization, that poses the bigger risk to the economic security of the American labor force. And unlike off-shoring, robots and super-smart software will affect both manufacturing and service jobs."""



http://www.aei.org/publication/us-politics-is-badly-infected-with-economic-nostalgia/
Which means a smart man will learn how to make and maintain robots. I love Hoffer by the way. Just re-read "The True Believer" a few months ago.

My father had a couple of pearls of wisdoms in regards to economic prosperity that I'm sure are in no way unique but applicable and all true.

1. If you don't learn a skill and constantly work to improve that skill and/or learn new ones life will shit on you.

2. Go where the money is if you want to earn some.

3. Education is the key.

4. Success is a state of mind. So is failure.

5. Fuck Michigan.
 
And how is it any different than Bernies supporters who think they will get "free college" or Obamas supporters.

I am not defending Trump not do I support him. Merely saying that you are incredibly myopic in your analysis
on economic protectionism he's not any different than Trump nor is the psychology of the supporters of their economic populism any different.

However, calling an increase in public education, public R&D, and infrastructure spending, free stuff is like calling building an aircraft carrier a free ship. All four have proven returns on investment and economic stimulus. Economic protectionism has usually shown to have the opposite affect but to really understand where the author is coming from you should probably read Hoffer.
 
@__@ yes yes it is.

In the olden days people used their card for big ticket purchases because they had the money to survive day to day. Right now our credit cards are being used for day to day expenses like food utilities and rent. If you look at the stats credit card debt increases year on year BUT the number of people with cards decrease. You can see that people drop out of the credit market continously.

Without credit you cant buy tv's and other items like that leading to less demand for them and ultimately less jobs. Right now you may not even be able to survive a month without credit.

Credit card debt directly affects consumer spending which is the biggest part of the economy. If people cant buy they cant generate demand for jobs.

CC debt will bring the US down faster than anything. You know when trump says there will be a crash if he is not president? This is it.

So the Fed and it's asset bubble won't impact the economy but consumer credit (and you're not even talking student loans) will?

That ain't it my man.
 
Credit card debt while an issue isn't taking down the U.S.
I'm an optimist. I have reason to be. Our quality of life has improved substantially over my life time and continues to do so. Our nations problems are manageable as long as we have the will. Those who are at the highest risk are those who are most adverse to change.
 
Short but well stated and to the point about the (false) dreams of a manufacturing renaissance.




US politics is badly infected with economic nostalgia


The current state of American politics has led to a rediscovery of working-class philosopher Eric Hoffer. Probably Hoffer’s most well-known work is “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements,” published in 1951. As a recent Daily Beast story on his new found relevance explains, “Hoffer’s big insight was that the followers of Nazism and Communism were essentially the same sort of true believers, the most zealous acolytes of religious, nationalist, and other mass movements throughout history.”

Hoffer is amazingly quotable — and tweetable for that matter. Here’s one a bit of wisdom that seems particularly applicable at the moment: “All mass movements deprecate the present, and there is no more potent dwarfing of the present than by viewing it as a mere link between a glorious past and a glorious future.”

Preach. I’ve written frequently about the economic nostalgia that has infected American politics — on the left and right — along with the ridiculously gloomy assessment of today. For instance, here is Donald Trump recently: “I think we were a very powerful, very wealthy country. And we’re a poor country now. ”

Of course America remains an incredibly powerful and prosperous and innovative nation, a nation with the strong military and a net worth of nearly $100 trillion. And American living standards are certainly higher today than a generation ago, much less two generations ago.

One weird offshoot of all this is the obsession with manufacturing jobs as a key metric of America’s health. Back to the 1950s and 1960s! In a recent column, New York Times’ reporter Eduardo Porter writes at length about the myth of the manufacturing jobs renaissance:


"""No matter how high the tariffs Mr. Trump wants to raise to encircle the American economy, he will not be able to produce a manufacturing renaissance at home. Neither would changing tax rules to limit corporate flight from the United States, as Mrs. Clinton proposes. … Look at it this way: Over the course of the 20th century, farm employment in the United States dropped to 2 percent of the work force from 41 percent, even as output soared. Since 1950, manufacturing’s share has shrunk to 8.5 percent of nonfarm jobs, from 24 percent. It still has a ways to go. The shrinking of manufacturing employment is global. In other words, strategies to restore manufacturing jobs in one country will amount to destroying them in another, in a worldwide zero-sum game."""

And me:


"""So when Trump says he wants to force Apple to make its products in America, what he’s really unintentionally saying is that he wants American robots to do the work of Chinese robots. President Trump can raise all the tariff walls he wants — manufacturing jobs lost to Asia aren’t coming back in any sense that Trump means. Going forward, it’s automation, not globalization, that poses the bigger risk to the economic security of the American labor force. And unlike off-shoring, robots and super-smart software will affect both manufacturing and service jobs."""



http://www.aei.org/publication/us-politics-is-badly-infected-with-economic-nostalgia/

The false premise? The nail being hammered by the supposedly professional carpenter. Jobs is the not the problem, software tech., nor manufacturing. There is no NAIL ON THE HEAD when the wrong structure is attempted to be erected. No politician CAN CREATE JOBS...but they sure as hell can destroy them.

The problem is the ever going position that Politicians/Governments create jobs in a supposed "free market" economy. Jobs are created in the PRIVATE SECTOR regardless of their nomenclature.....unless you count the hundreds of thousands JOBS being totally funded/supported by THE TAX PAYER..i.e., GOVERNMENT JOBS within the large boondoggle known as a Central Government (as everyone knows just how well Big Brother manages his bottom line...that has nothing to do with any kind of economic baseline that depends upon a mandatory "profit".

What happens when Big Brother loses money...does he lay off and restructure....not no, but hell no...HE RAISES TAXES and hires more drones. The politicians have no need for a bottom line because they propagate a false message that TAXES have no limitation.

You want to "FIX" the job market? Keep the politicians the hell out of the way and get their foot from the throat of the industry that creates the most JOBS in the United States.....SMALL BUSINESS. The Average American is smart....he/she will figure it out, the SUPPLY/DEMAND that is required to make the US profitable again...regardless of where that demand or supply might lead.

Think about it....if a POLITICIAN could make it in the private sector.....he would, he would not be working as a civil servant...spreading the big lie that He/She knows everything about JOBS and the REAL WORLD.

Its like the hierarchy at our institutions of higher learning....you have Prof's teaching our young minds about things they themselves could not conquer in the REAL WORLD....as the majority have never held a job in the private sector concerning the indoctrination they are propagating and passing on to those who KNOW NOTHING. And when they get finished...what do they have a 250K education that can't find a job in order to pay for the endeavor. Then they blame WALL STREET because they refuse to use the 34th best minds on the globe? As Wall St. seeks smarter people at lower wages. The one thing this article has right...the world is leaving the United States in the Dust...because of a mentality that preaches "ENTITLEMENT"....instead of hard work. Really? Its the type of work that is the problem?

Its the fault of the arrow that has left the bow of the Indian when it fails to hit its mark? Again...really?

But here comes the "leftists" to the rescue....LIBERALISM cannot be the problem...its the solution, let us FIX IT FOR YOU. The solution when the arrow misses its mark? You shoot the arrow first and then rush up to the barn being shot at and paint a big red target around the arrow that has already came to rest. A BULLS EYE everytime:palm:
 
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