Another thread wherein I embarrass superstupid

Subjective legal definitions are not hard science, Dung... The attempt to continually pretend that a developing human being (or even possibly more than one if it twins) are not actually human life because their development hasn't reached a subjective legal definition is not 'science' it is philosophy. It might make you feel better to define it as other than human or even 'life', but it isn't 'science' to do such.

We can understand how people want to use subjective terminology in law, which is itself subjective, but the pretense that it is now 'science' is preposterous.

Not dung.

Subjective definitions are not hard science is EXACTLY the point I have been making. You added a word that is not necessary.

I acknowledge that my position includes philosophical premises though it is informed by science. You and the other pro-lifers are the ones that want to use subjective terminology while maintaining a pretense that it is now 'science.' You are all full of shit and there is no hard science that can prove your claim.
 
Not dung.

Subjective definitions are not hard science is EXACTLY the point I have been making. You added a word that is not necessary.

I acknowledge that my position includes philosophical premises though it is informed by science. You and the other pro-lifers are the ones that want to use subjective terminology while maintaining a pretense that it is now 'science.' You are all full of shit and there is no hard science that can prove your claim.

What is subjective about which definition? You acknowledge your definition to be subjective, however alive/not alive is not subjective other than in legalese and in philosophy. Your side tries to use subjective reasoning to say that you are 'informed by science'...

So do young earth believers, it doesn't make what they say 'science'...
 
What is subjective about which definition? You acknowledge your definition to be subjective, however alive/not alive is not subjective other than in legalese and in philosophy. It isn't science to say "this isn't alive because the courts decided blah"... that's a turd you left in the seat, not me.

I have not referenced the courts. ???

The sperm/egg is alive. Your philosophical definition of "human life" is subjective even though you make a pretense that it is now 'science.'
 
You should know that since it comes from the same part that says it's okay to beat your slave. Exodus 21:22-23

oops....22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

sucks when it says the opposite of what you claim.....
 
It is inconsistent, because you exclude sperm, eggs, my arm, and the brain dead from human life while they are all alive and of human origin. Your simple minded definition claimed those were the only two conditions. You have not answered, you just evaded the questions and restated your unsupported definition of when life begins. You just did it again.

The sperm is human or of human origin. It is alive. It is genetically distinct. There I am pointing to it, dumbfuck. When can you point to the sperm and say it is not alive or not human?

No, you did not moron. For the unique human life HAS NOT BEEN CREATED UNTIL A SPERM CELL FERTILIZES AN EGG CELL. Therefore that unique human life DOES NOT EXIST at the time you foolishly are waving your arms saying 'the sperm cell is alive'... That sperm cell has a DIFFERENT genetic code.

The fact that you continue to spout your nonsense is amusing. Do you honestly believe a fertilized egg = sperm cell, 'your arm'etc??? Are you really that fucking retarded?

It is obvious that you are defining "human" as something more than of human origin.

What are you rambling about now? Something is either human or it is not. What part of that makes you spin off into the above nonsense?

But your simple minded definition fails to make that clear that and you evade the fact that you bring in your philosophy to arrive at the definition of "human."

LMAO... there is NO philosophy in my comment you fucking retard. YOU are the one that keeps trying to bring philosophy into this.

There is no hard science and no experiment that can be done to prove your definition of "human" or when human life begins, because science is not about definitions.

Except there IS... you cannot falsify either of the two points I made. It is impossible.

Yes, I can point to a time after fertilization when it is not human (prior to viability) or alive (the brain dead) and you have STILL failed to deal with these glaring holes in your very POLITICAL definition.

LMAO... no, you cannot, not using hard science. But lets play your game... what species do you think it is prior to viability? The brain dead are DEAD... NO chance to recover. Do you really want to keep making the ignorant argument that something that is alive and developing is equal to something that is dead?

I have not failed to address that. I have pointed out the ignorance in your argument many times. The unborn child is more like a person in a coma who is on life support, not like a brain dead person on life support. Even then the coma is a bad analogy as the coma patient was injured in some manner. Whereas the unborn child was not. That said, your brain dead analogy is moronic... at best.

Your argument is not made on biology or genetics alone.

Wrong again moron. It is. Which is why you are unable to falsify it. Do you honestly think any biologist or geneticist would take your position seriously? That a sperm cell is equal to a fertilized egg cell? Or that your ARM is equal to a fertilized egg cell? Your position not only is ignorant of the most basic of the sciences, but your desire to present it as the truth regardless of the facts laid in front of you shows that you are determined to compound your ignorance with stupidity.

It requires philosophical premises and you are extremely ignorant of all three subjects.

This should be amusing... what part of my comment is 'philosophical'?

Tell us genius... what part?
 
Fail. What makes the zygote a "human life" and the sperm/egg not. Here let's compare based on some of the conditions you mention.

Is it alive? Sperm/Egg yes; Zygote yes.

Yes, all are alive.

Is it human? Sperm/Egg yes; Zygote yes.

Here is where you fail. The sperm and egg are human CELLS. The Zygote contains the genetic coding for the entire human anatomy. The sperm and egg cells individually will NEVER have the ability to develop beyond what they currently are. EVER.

Is it genetically distinct? Sperm/Egg yes; Zygote yes.
Straw man... genetic distinction can be found between all types of cells. A liver cell is not the same as a skin cell etc...

The point I actually made is that the Zygote is a unique HUMAN LIFE... The complete DNA mapping of a human being. A sperm cell is not. Neither is an egg cell. Or your arm.

Does it grow and develop? Sperm/Egg yes; Zygote yes.

Really? LMAO... what does a sperm cell develop into?

Is it human life according to the PHILOSOPHICAL PREMISES of Nova and SF? Sperm/Egg no; Zygote yes.

There is no philosophy in our position. Just basic science... which is why you are too retarded to comprehend.
 
No, you did not moron. For the unique human life HAS NOT BEEN CREATED UNTIL A SPERM CELL FERTILIZES AN EGG CELL. Therefore that unique human life DOES NOT EXIST at the time you foolishly are waving your arms saying 'the sperm cell is alive'... That sperm cell has a DIFFERENT genetic code.

The fact that you continue to spout your nonsense is amusing. Do you honestly believe a fertilized egg = sperm cell, 'your arm'etc??? Are you really that fucking retarded?
LMAO... there is NO philosophy in my comment you fucking retard. YOU are the one that keeps trying to bring philosophy into this.

Except there IS... you cannot falsify either of the two points I made. It is impossible.

LMAO... no, you cannot, not using hard science. But lets play your game... what species do you think it is prior to viability? The brain dead are DEAD... NO chance to recover. Do you really want to keep making the ignorant argument that something that is alive and developing is equal to something that is dead?

I have not failed to address that. I have pointed out the ignorance in your argument many times. The unborn child is more like a person in a coma who is on life support, not like a brain dead person on life support. Even then the coma is a bad analogy as the coma patient was injured in some manner. Whereas the unborn child was not. That said, your brain dead analogy is moronic... at best.

Wrong again moron. It is. Which is why you are unable to falsify it. Do you honestly think any biologist or geneticist would take your position seriously? That a sperm cell is equal to a fertilized egg cell? Or that your ARM is equal to a fertilized egg cell? Your position not only is ignorant of the most basic of the sciences, but your desire to present it as the truth regardless of the facts laid in front of you shows that you are determined to compound your ignorance with stupidity.

This should be amusing... what part of my comment is 'philosophical'?

Tell us genius... what part?


You have NOT ANSWERED. You are just going in circles claiming that the zygote is a unique human life because it is and a sperm/egg is not because it is not.

The sperm/egg is alive; it is human; it is genetically distinct, why isn't it "human life." Quit running away or in circles and answer the question, chickenshit. What specific thing separates the sperm from human life that is possessed by the fertilized egg?

No, I don't believe a fertilized egg equals a sperm cell. So? I don't believe a fertilized egg equals a child either. I am simply pointing out how your definition fails and is based on philosophy that you can't articulate not science.

Prior to viability the fetus removed from the womb would be as dead as the brain dead, not analogous to someone in a coma.

You have not offered a single biologist or geneticist to support your claim. I have provided several that have clearly stated that the definition of life is not unequivocal, that there is NO consensus on the beginning of life and that your claims about the beginning of life, or anybody else's, necessarily involve philosophical premises.

You are clearly bereft of any knowledge on science, biology, genetics or philosophy and I am still waiting on you to provide this genetics that I deny, you science denying right wing moron. Being able to regurgitate a few trivial facts does not show you actually know what you are talking about.
 
You have NOT ANSWERED. You are just going in circles claiming that the zygote is a unique human life because it is and a sperm/egg is not because it is not.

LMAO... the zygote contains the ENTIRE GENETIC CODING FOR A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. It will grow and develop until born, then continue to grow from infant to toddler to teen to adult. THAT IS FACT. Only death prevents this from occurring.

The sperm/egg is alive; it is human; it is genetically distinct, why isn't it "human life." Quit running away or in circles and answer the question, chickenshit. What specific thing separates the sperm from human life that is possessed by the fertilized egg?

You truly are a fucking idiot. Go tell a geneticist that a sperm cell is equivalent to a zygote. Make sure to take a stop watch so you can clock how fast they laugh at you.

What specific thing? Are you fucking kiddin? How many times do I have to state the specific thing before you fucking stop asking me to?

THE SPECIFIC THING IS THAT THE SPERM CELL DOES NOT EVER ON ITS OWN HAVE THE GENETIC CODING TO DEVELOP INTO A CHILD, TEEN, ADULT ETC... EVER.

a FERTILIZED EGG CELL DOES.


Prior to viability the fetus removed from the womb would be as dead as the brain dead, not analogous to someone in a coma.

A coma patient pulled off of life support would be as dead as well. A person shot through the head would be just as dead. You are living proof that even the brain dead can be human.

You truly are more ignorant than Desh.
 
Here you go little baby.

I will in good faith respond to your questions but it will not continue past that until you make a specific claim with references about what genetics I have denied.

There is no confusion or disagreement about the hard science related to your questions. The disagreement and YOUR confusion come in to play when YOU attempt to inject philosophical arguments into the equation to form a definition on life and conclusions on when it begins.

Regarding question 1.... I would argue that the immediate result of the human egg and human sperm is NEVER human life. It may become human life.

Regarding question 2.... I have not argued that the fetus is not alive. You are AGAIN, conflating "alive" with "life." Doing so is bad semantics (which is ALL you have got) and shows your philosophic and scientific incompetence. Your arm is alive. It's not life. Not by any stretch. A virus is alive. Some argue it is life but most say it is not or is at the edges of life.
I am only responding to number one. First, I am ardently pro-choice. I was president of my college choice organization as a undergrad and I have volunteered as an escort at clinics in Kansas. Scientifically speaking the moment that the egg is fertilized it is by scientific definition a human life. It has all 23 pairs of chromosomes. It is growing and exhibiting all signs of a distinct and separate life form.

"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]

If you performed a DNA test on an embryo it would come back as human. The argument is when it becomes a life that should be protected. I have always said that when the left denies that an embryo is a human life they appear ghoulish. It presents as someone that does not care. You would NEVER tell a woman who wanted to keep a pregnancy that she was not carrying a child, human being or baby. For far to long our side has minimized what is happening when a woman has an abortion. She is ending human life, Abortion is the last worst choice a woman should ever have to make, but it should remain safe and legal.
 
Finally, you have engaged in discussion. Now let's go over your errors.

Yes, all are alive.

Here is where you fail. The sperm and egg are human CELLS. The Zygote contains the genetic coding for the entire human anatomy. The sperm and egg cells individually will NEVER have the ability to develop beyond what they currently are. EVER.

Here is where you leave the science and inject philosophy. So then you are not defining human as human origin. What is the sperm before that? An orangutan? There is no test that can establish "humanness" apart from human origin. And I can just as easily argue that the zygote is not yet human.

Removed from the womb the fertilized egg will NEVER have the capacity to develop beyond what it currently is. EVER. It cannot yet sustain its basic existence even momentarily, never will be able to and will immediately die. Left alone and with good fortune it will grow and develop the anatomy of a human. But the same could be said for the egg or sperm.

Your argument is that the cells of the fertilized egg have reached a point of viability that is sufficient to be called "human life." But this line you draw is no more scientifically based than mine, is just as arbitrary but as less philosophically sound.

Straw man... genetic distinction can be found between all types of cells. A liver cell is not the same as a skin cell etc...

Wrong! Your liver cell is not GENETICALLY distinct from your skin cell. Every cell in your body contains the same 23 matched pairs of chromosomes EXCEPT for sperm/egg which contain unique combinations of 23 single chromosomes. They are genetically distinct in a way that your liver cells are not.

The point I actually made is that the Zygote is a unique HUMAN LIFE... The complete DNA mapping of a human being. A sperm cell is not. Neither is an egg cell. Or your arm.

Wrong again! The cells in your arm contain the complete DNA mapping of a human being. Like I said, you don't know shit.

Really? LMAO... what does a sperm cell develop into?

What are you going to develop into? Take the fertilized egg out of the womb and what will it develop into?

There is no philosophy in our position. Just basic science... which is why you are too retarded to comprehend.

You don't even understand the science and you inject bad philosophy which causes you to arrive at an absurd conclusion.
 
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LMAO... the zygote contains the ENTIRE GENETIC CODING FOR A UNIQUE HUMAN BEING. It will grow and develop until born, then continue to grow from infant to toddler to teen to adult. THAT IS FACT. Only death prevents this from occurring.



You truly are a fucking idiot. Go tell a geneticist that a sperm cell is equivalent to a zygote. Make sure to take a stop watch so you can clock how fast they laugh at you.

What specific thing? Are you fucking kiddin? How many times do I have to state the specific thing before you fucking stop asking me to?

THE SPECIFIC THING IS THAT THE SPERM CELL DOES NOT EVER ON ITS OWN HAVE THE GENETIC CODING TO DEVELOP INTO A CHILD, TEEN, ADULT ETC... EVER.

a FERTILIZED EGG CELL DOES.


A coma patient pulled off of life support would be as dead as well. A person shot through the head would be just as dead. You are living proof that even the brain dead can be human.

You truly are more ignorant than Desh.

You don't what you are talking about moron. All you have are strawman arguments, ad homs and bunch of bluff.

I never once claimed that a sperm cell is equivalent to a zygote, liar.

Your only distinction is viability. It's not scientifically different than mine just less philosophically sound.

Now go clean yourself so I can beat your ass on some other topic.
 
"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
 
"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]

You are just repeating Taft's/Prolife Princeton's mined quotes. They are just some author's/editor's opinion.

There is no consensus on when life begins. Different branches of science have different definitions of life and none of them are unequivocal. Again, definitions are not hard science. They are merely attempts to describe complex concepts.
 
You don't what you are talking about moron. All you have are strawman arguments, ad homs and bunch of bluff.

I have not created a single straw man.

I never once claimed that a sperm cell is equivalent to a zygote, liar.

Actually, you did. Post 77.

Your only distinction is viability. It's not scientifically different than mine just less philosophically sound.

No moron... YOU are the one that is talking about viability as a determining factor as to when life begins.
 
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