Will The Overselling Of Global Warming Lead To A New Scientific Dark Age?

When I was young, they said it would be global cooling that was a threat to mans existence. Then as an adult they said it was man caused global warming that would threaten mans existence. As I enter retirement they will probably proclaim global cooling once again.

That's a flat out lie. "Global cooling" wasn't anywhere near common belief. It came out of a single academic article, largely ignored by the scientific and academic communities. Only recently have people begun framing it like you have, because it presents an opportunity to undercut the certainty we have about GCC.
 
The reactionary nutters'burn-the-worlds propaganda will lead to the end of the human race, which should please those subhumans as they fry
 
That's a flat out lie. "Global cooling" wasn't anywhere near common belief. It came out of a single academic article, largely ignored by the scientific and academic communities. Only recently have people begun framing it like you have, because it presents an opportunity to undercut the certainty we have about GCC.

How is it a flat out lie when it is true and I can remember it?

Dunce.
 
Mott, I expect a lot better than that from you, that is Desh territory.

Michael Crichton said: “If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus.” Thales of Miletus, Abu Ali Ibn al Haytham, Newton, Einstein, Popper and Feynman thought much the same and said so. Science by head-count is mere politics.

Doran and Zimmerman (2009) and Anderegg et al. (2010) each concluded that 97% of a few dozen carefully-filtered climate scientists held Man guilty of some of the 0.7 Cº global warming since 1950.

Cook et al. (2013), in a recent me-too article in Environment Research Letters, conducted the largest-ever sensational epic blockbuster cast-of-thousands drama survey of scientific papers on climate change. They concluded that 97.1% of abstracts expressing an opinion on climate change endorsed the “scientific consensus”.

Here’s how they did it.

They examined 11,944 abstracts. But they arbitrarily threw out almost 8000 of them on the ground that they had not toed the Party Line by expressing the politically-correct opinion (or any opinion) on climate change.

Next, they ingeniously interchanged three separate versions of the imagined “scientific consensus”: that Man had caused some warming; that Man had caused most of the warming since 1950; and that man-made warming would be catastrophic unless the West were shut down and climate sceptics were put on trial – as the appalling James Hansen has suggested – for high crimes against humanity.

It was this last definition – in fact untested in Cook et al. or, as far as I know, in any other paper – that Mr Obama’s Twitteratus plumped for when he tweeted that 97% of scientists consider climate change not only real but “dangerous”.

The introduction to the Cook paper said that the survey was intended to examine the standard or IPCC “scientific consensus” that most of the warmer weather since 1950 was our fault.
The authors, having consigned 7930 abstracts to the Memory Hole because they had not parroted the Party Line, were left with 4014 abstracts. They marked just 64 of them, or 1.6% of the 4014 abstracts, as endorsing the standard version of “scientific consensus”.

Further examination by Legates et al. (2013) showed that only 41 of the 64 abstracts, or 1.0% of the 4014 abstracts expressing an opinion on the Party Line, or just 0.3% of the original 11,944 abstracts, had said Yes to the standard version of consensus.

The incredible shrinking consensus

cook-shrinking-consensus-97.png


(A) Cook et al. claimed 97.1% consensus among 4014 abstracts; but (B) that was only 32.6% of all 11,944 abstracts in their sample; and (C) only 1% of the 4014 papers or (D) 0.3% of the entire 11,944 sample actually said Yes to the “scientific consensus” as Cook et al. had defined it.

However, since 32.6% of all 11,944 abstracts, or 97.1% of the 4010 abstracts expressing an opinion on the Party Line, had said or implied that Man causes some warming, Cook et al. concluded by saying that 97.1% of all abstracts expressing an opinion had said that Man had caused most of the warming since 1950.

The totalitarian news media (that is just about all of them), ever careless with their logical quantifiers, dutifully reported that 97.1% of all scientists had stated their support for the “scientific consensus” that all global warming since 1950 was manmade.

The website of the Institute of Physics reported one of Cook’s co-authors as saying that the paper had indeed concluded that there was 97.1% support for that notion.

However, in my submission it is time for sceptics not merely to express dismay at the flagrant distortion of the objective truth that has occurred. I reported that co-author to his university for misconduct in the dissemination of research results, and the university has told me it has decided to investigate.

The Institute of Physics, to whom I also complained, says it does not propose to alter its story because, it says, the co-author’s statement accurately reflects the paper’s conclusion. I have sent it the authors’ own data-file and have asked it to check that the authors themselves had marked only 64 out of 11,944 papers as endorsing the version of “scientific consensus” for which the paper claims 97.1% consensus.

I have asked that the Institute should at least report that the result of the paper has been credibly challenged in the peer-reviewed literature; and I await its reply. A report of research misconduct has gone to the Vice-Chancellor of Queensland University and to the Professor who is the “designated person” to investigate the lead author under the University’s research policies. I await a reply from either of them.

This is where you come in, gentle readers. For I have written a letter to the editor of Environmental Research Letters asking him to withdraw the paper on the ground that it is not merely defective but deceptive. The letter is below.

I should be very grateful if every reader who agrees with me that the paper should be withdrawn would send a message to this thread giving their names and, if they wish, their academic qualifications. I shall then add the names to the letter and send it to the editor. Jo Nova herself is a signatory. Please join us.

The paper should have been withdrawn long ago, but it is perhaps not unreasonable to suspect that the board of the journal, whose members include Peter Gleick, will delay doing the inevitable for as long as possible in the hope of not undermining the IPCC’s arbitrary decision, in its imminent Fifth Assessment Report to assign a 95% confidence interval to the proposition that we caused most of the warming since 1950.

On the evidence that Cook et al. have themselves collected, there is no legitimate scientific basis whatsoever for any such confidence interval. Like much else in the IPCC’s disgraceful documents, it is simply made up.

There was a sting in the tail of my latest reminder note to the editor of Environment Research Letters. I said that I hoped I should not have to involve the public authorities.
For the most disturbing aspect of this affair is that the result that the paper claims is egregiously at variance with the authors’ own categorization of the 11,944 abstracts in their own data-file.

Yet the authors themselves, though they have read Legates et al., have not withdrawn their paper; aside from the editor of Environment Research Letters, not a single member of the board has written back to me; the Institute of Physics seems unbecomingly reluctant to correct its gravely misleading story even though I have sent it Cook’s data-file and a copy of Legates et al. and have asked it to verify the position for itself; and, after a longer period than is reasonable in the circumstances, not one but two senior officers of Cook’s university have failed even to acknowledge a reasonable request that they should investigate.
Something does not smell right. Should we be angry?


http://joannenova.com.au/2013/09/monckton-honey-i-shrunk-the-consensus/
That's projection on your part. I have no big dog in this fight. Ya'll are entitled to believe what you want no matter how rediculous or obvious the data is to anyone else.

No one is denying that there is a hell of a lot to learn about ACC and that the mechnisms involved are not completely understood but what good is your adherence to fringe data? Why this reluctance to discuss to broader issues of pollution and how ACC is interconnected to that broader issue?

I mean knowing the data as I do, just to read you guys parse data, attempt to undermine the science and then dance on the head of a dime trying not to admit that your views are influenced by other agendas (economics or political) and conclude that the frindge data proves in your mind beyond all doubt that ACC is a hoax, a conspiracy and just blatant alarmism.

What's obvious to me, and it's why I don't even normally don't get involved in these silly debates are some cold hard facts that ya'll seem to sublimate trying to rationalize your point of view with fringe minutea.

Last year the US alone emitted around 32 trillion pounds of CO2 from Coal burning fire plants alone and that only represents 1/4 of the US CO2 emmisions from all sources. The total US emmisions are closer to 120 trillion pounds CO2 and that's just the US and just one pollutant! World wide annual man made CO2 emmisions are over 600 trillion pounds of CO2 per year! Let me repeat that PER YEAR! That doesn't include CO, Methane, Chlorofluorcarbons, Nitrous Oxides, Sulfur Dioxide, Volatile Organic Compounds, Polyaromatic Hydrocarbons and Particulate matter that contains inorganics like arsenic, chromium VI, lead and mercury.

The question to me given the staggering volumes of pollutants (in excess of a quadrillion pounds annually) emitted in the atmosphree is how could it not affect climate? How could it not affect human health and safety? How could it not affect planetary ecosystems? How could it not impact human habitation? And how could it not be intrinsically interelated to all of these issues?

That human activity is impacting climate is an easy observation. Given the circumstances and the data it doesn't take an Einstein to draw this conclusion. MAN MADE AIR POLLUTION IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!!

Now those of you with your badly hidden political/ecnomic agenda can deny that this is the driver behind your attacks on the science all you want but you're not kidding anyone and you're certainly not kidding me!

Now until you are willing to be honest and admit that your economic and political beliefs are drivers on this issue, then I really don't see any point in even discussing it with you.
 
Yes, it does. The conclusions were that the science was settled, 95% confidence levels in forecasts, and too many claims to mention.

The dissenting data, as you term it, falsifies the models which made predictions that fall outside of reality. The data is a representation of reality. It's the closest thing we have to a control by which to compare the models' output.

It make a difference.
That's a strawman. I haven't ever heard any climate scientist make those claims. No one has ever said that the science on ACC is settled. That there is a consensus that human activity is impacting climate in science is true. The vast majority of scientist working in this field agree that human activity is impacting climate. Given the staggering quantities of air pollution emitted around the world annually what is so damned difficult to believe about that? That's not exactly a hard sell you know.
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Superfreak
Questions for Mutt the scientist to answer... just putting them all in one post...

If MAN is the primary driver of climate change AND CO2 is the greenhouse gas they blame the most for warming, then explain HOW the earth has not continued getting warmer for the better part of two DECADES, despite continuing increases in CO2 emissions?

Do you deny that the scientists promoting the AGW theory have a vested interest in it? Do they not receive funding because they present a case for alarm?

If they came out and said, 'man is having an effect on the climate change, but it is not substantial'... what would happen to their government funding Mutt?

Funny how Mutt returned... but still failed to live up to his word and answer the questions above.
 
That's projection on your part. I have no big dog in this fight. Ya'll are entitled to believe what you want no matter how rediculous or obvious the data is to anyone else.

Nonsense. If you run around shouting 'science denier' you have a dog in the fight. You attempt to mock those that show you data that destroys your religious belief. You deliberately post misleading data. But you want to pretend you have no dog in the fight?

No one is denying that there is a hell of a lot to learn about ACC and that the mechnisms involved are not completely understood but what good is your adherence to fringe data? Why this reluctance to discuss to broader issues of pollution and how ACC is interconnected to that broader issue?

Yes, there is a lot to learn. Yet you pretend the matter is resolved. What 'fringe data' is being used? You keep saying this, yet provide no evidence. You on the other hand continually post BAD data and pretend we should bow down before it. Given your dishonest nature on what we have discussed thus far, why should we go on to other discussions?

I mean knowing the data as I do, just to read you guys parse data, attempt to undermine the science and then dance on the head of a dime trying not to admit that your views are influenced by other agendas (economics or political) and conclude that the frindge data proves in your mind beyond all doubt that ACC is a hoax, a conspiracy and just blatant alarmism.

LMAO... you don't KNOW the data from a hole in the wall. You were just made a fool of with your 97% of 10000 articles line of bullshit. You can't even be accurate on that, but you want to pretend you understand the data? Showing that a theory is incorrect, is not 'undermining science'... IT IS SCIENCE... It is the scientific method. You TRY to falsify the theory, if you cannot, then odds are the theory is correct. But YOU ignore everything that shows the theory is incorrect. Which is why you refuse to answer my questions.

Again... WHAT 'fringe data' are you referring to?

What's obvious to me, and it's why I don't even normally don't get involved in these silly debates are some cold hard facts that ya'll seem to sublimate trying to rationalize your point of view with fringe minutea.

LMAO... so you are just going to try and pretend everything we have stated is from this mysterious 'fringe data' that you magically refer to any time you don't have actual data to support your position?

Last year the US alone emitted around 32 trillion pounds of CO2 from Coal burning fire plants alone and that only represents 1/4 of the US CO2 emmisions from all sources. The total US emmisions are closer to 120 trillion pounds CO2 and that's just the US and just one pollutant! World wide annual man made CO2 emmisions are over 600 trillion pounds of CO2 per year! Let me repeat that PER YEAR! That doesn't include CO, Methane, Chlorofluorcarbons, Nitrous Oxides, Sulfur Dioxide, Volatile Organic Compounds, Polyaromatic Hydrocarbons and Particulate matter that contains inorganics like arsenic, chromium VI, lead and mercury.

Yes... we have continued pumping out CO2 etc... yet for 17 years the earth has not continued to warm. Yet you STILL put forth the myth that MAN is the primary driver of climate change. The funny part is that you don't comprehend the disconnect in your line of 'thought'.

The question to me given the staggering volumes of pollutants (in excess of a quadrillion pounds annually) emitted in the atmosphree is how could it not affect climate?

This is a common cop out by those like you that pretend AGW is correct and that those that oppose it are 'deniers'. No one... and I do mean NO ONE is saying that man has NO affect on the climate. NO ONE.

What we are saying is that man is not the primary driver of change. THAT is the portion we disagree on. But you create your straw man because it is the only thing you can knock down.
That human activity is impacting climate is an easy observation. Given the circumstances and the data it doesn't take an Einstein to draw this conclusion. MAN MADE AIR POLLUTION IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!!

Now those of you with your badly hidden political/ecnomic agenda can deny that this is the driver behind your attacks on the science all you want but you're not kidding anyone and you're certainly not kidding me!

How the mighty Mutt did slay his straw man!!!
 
That's projection on your part. I have no big dog in this fight. Ya'll are entitled to believe what you want no matter how rediculous or obvious the data is to anyone else.

No one is denying that there is a hell of a lot to learn about ACC and that the mechnisms involved are not completely understood but what good is your adherence to fringe data? Why this reluctance to discuss to broader issues of pollution and how ACC is interconnected to that broader issue?

I mean knowing the data as I do, just to read you guys parse data, attempt to undermine the science and then dance on the head of a dime trying not to admit that your views are influenced by other agendas (economics or political) and conclude that the frindge data proves in your mind beyond all doubt that ACC is a hoax, a conspiracy and just blatant alarmism.

What's obvious to me, and it's why I don't even normally don't get involved in these silly debates are some cold hard facts that ya'll seem to sublimate trying to rationalize your point of view with fringe minutea.

Last year the US alone emitted around 32 trillion pounds of CO2 from Coal burning fire plants alone and that only represents 1/4 of the US CO2 emmisions from all sources. The total US emmisions are closer to 120 trillion pounds CO2 and that's just the US and just one pollutant! World wide annual man made CO2 emmisions are over 600 trillion pounds of CO2 per year! Let me repeat that PER YEAR! That doesn't include CO, Methane, Chlorofluorcarbons, Nitrous Oxides, Sulfur Dioxide, Volatile Organic Compounds, Polyaromatic Hydrocarbons and Particulate matter that contains inorganics like arsenic, chromium VI, lead and mercury.

The question to me given the staggering volumes of pollutants (in excess of a quadrillion pounds annually) emitted in the atmosphree is how could it not affect climate? How could it not affect human health and safety? How could it not affect planetary ecosystems? How could it not impact human habitation? And how could it not be intrinsically interelated to all of these issues?

That human activity is impacting climate is an easy observation. Given the circumstances and the data it doesn't take an Einstein to draw this conclusion. MAN MADE AIR POLLUTION IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!!

Now those of you with your badly hidden political/ecnomic agenda can deny that this is the driver behind your attacks on the science all you want but you're not kidding anyone and you're certainly not kidding me!

Now until you are willing to be honest and admit that your economic and political beliefs are drivers on this issue, then I really don't see any point in even discussing it with you.

What I really hate is when people, try to lump CO2 with pollution in general. Who says that we shouldn't clean up pollution? I also don't understand why you are using pounds rather than tonnes, is it to make the numbers sound bigger? Actually around 733 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide are produced from all sources each year, of which around 3% comes from human activities. That is about 22 billion tonnes per year.

I would also like to know why you regurgitated the 97% consensus canard, I showed you how it was arrived at and you just totally ignored it.
 
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Poor Mutt... the pretend scientist... doesn't even understand the scientific method. He thinks shouting 'denier' = science.
 
That's a strawman. I haven't ever heard any climate scientist make those claims. No one has ever said that the science on ACC is settled. That there is a consensus that human activity is impacting climate in science is true. The vast majority of scientist working in this field agree that human activity is impacting climate. Given the staggering quantities of air pollution emitted around the world annually what is so damned difficult to believe about that? That's not exactly a hard sell you know.

Scientists allowed the "settled science" meme to persist. They are guilty for not correcting government and media who readily promoted the meme
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2013/09/24/settled-science

http://www.livescience.com/39954-with-ipcc-report-climate-change-is-settled-science.html

Gore said it
Hansen said it
Charlie Rose said it
Tom Brokaw said it
Brian Williams said it
repeat ad nauseam
Even I agree humans are impacting and your infering sceptics don't is a strawman.
And the recent estimates of CO2 sensitivity are exactly what I have been saying they were for several years.
I am no longer in disagreement with IPCC estimates for doubling since they now agree with me.

old estimates were 4.5 with possible 6 degree C outer range and 1.5 lower range.
I said the forcing was overestimated and the true effect of a doubling would be about 1/3 of that.
I said the PDO and AMO were larger drivers of climate and the effects of the 98 el nino was improperly attributed to anthropogenic CO2 forcing

You can continue to believe I'm ignorant and unlearned, but I assure you, I know the finer points of the science and I build statistical tool applications as a hobby because I love to understand math and science ever more every day.
 
Except almost two thirds did not state an opinion. You misrepresented the support level. Now you continue to run from answering my questions. I asked first, yet you then stated you wanted me to address your questions first... I did... now you still haven't answered mine. Why is that mr. Scientist?
LOL You're freaking hilarious Freak. They didn't state an opinion on AGW because those abstracts were on different areas of climate research other than AGW. Derp, Derpt! LOL LOL

Of the 32.6% (3822 peer reviewed publications) of the Scientific abstracts between 1991 and 2011 that actually did research on AGW 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain of the cause.

Lord your funny :) can't even read an abstract! LOL
 
That's a strawman. I haven't ever heard any climate scientist make those claims. No one has ever said that the science on ACC is settled. That there is a consensus that human activity is impacting climate in science is true. The vast majority of scientist working in this field agree that human activity is impacting climate. Given the staggering quantities of air pollution emitted around the world annually what is so damned difficult to believe about that? That's not exactly a hard sell you know.


As I have said about a million times already, very few dispute that CO2 et al has some effect. The argument is to how much as you very well know. There are actually very few climate scientists that go along with the Mann, Hansen apocalyptic scenarios of positive feedback loops acting in conjunction with CO2 radiative forcing. I am happy to accept that the doubling of CO2 concentration could cause a 1.2C increase, however I strongly object to CO2 being always classified as a pollutant when it is highly beneficial to crop growth, something that I am sure that you know very well.
 
LOL You're freaking hilarious Freak. They didn't state an opinion on AGW because those abstracts were on different areas of climate research other than AGW. Derp, Derpt! LOL LOL

Of the 32.6% (3822 peer reviewed publications) of the Scientific abstracts between 1991 and 2011 that actually did research on AGW 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain of the cause.

Lord your funny :) can't even read an abstract! LOL

Cook et al. (2013), in a recent me-too article in Environment Research Letters, conducted the largest-ever sensational epic blockbuster cast-of-thousands drama survey of scientific papers on climate change. They concluded that 97.1% of abstracts expressing an opinion on climate change endorsed the “scientific consensus”.

Here’s how they did it.

They examined 11,944 abstracts. But they arbitrarily threw out almost 8000 of them on the ground that they had not toed the Party Line by expressing the politically-correct opinion (or any opinion) on climate change.

Next, they ingeniously interchanged three separate versions of the imagined “scientific consensus”: that Man had caused some warming; that Man had caused most of the warming since 1950; and that man-made warming would be catastrophic unless the West were shut down and climate sceptics were put on trial – as the appalling James Hansen has suggested – for high crimes against humanity.

It was this last definition – in fact untested in Cook et al. or, as far as I know, in any other paper – that Mr Obama’s Twitteratus plumped for when he tweeted that 97% of scientists consider climate change not only real but “dangerous”.

The introduction to the Cook paper said that the survey was intended to examine the standard or IPCC “scientific consensus” that most of the warmer weather since 1950 was our fault.
The authors, having consigned 7930 abstracts to the Memory Hole because they had not parroted the Party Line, were left with 4014 abstracts. They marked just 64 of them, or 1.6% of the 4014 abstracts, as endorsing the standard version of “scientific consensus”.

Further examination by Legates et al. (2013) showed that only 41 of the 64 abstracts, or 1.0% of the 4014 abstracts expressing an opinion on the Party Line, or just 0.3% of the original 11,944 abstracts, had said Yes to the standard version of consensus.

http://joannenova.com.au/2013/09/monckton-honey-i-shrunk-the-consensus/
 
Scientists allowed the "settled science" meme to persist. They are guilty for not correcting government and media who readily promoted the meme
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2013/09/24/settled-science

http://www.livescience.com/39954-with-ipcc-report-climate-change-is-settled-science.html

Gore said it
Hansen said it
Charlie Rose said it
Tom Brokaw said it
Brian Williams said it
repeat ad nauseam
Even I agree humans are impacting and your infering sceptics don't is a strawman.
And the recent estimates of CO2 sensitivity are exactly what I have been saying they were for several years.
I am no longer in disagreement with IPCC estimates for doubling since they now agree with me.

old estimates were 4.5 with possible 6 degree C outer range and 1.5 lower range.
I said the forcing was overestimated and the true effect of a doubling would be about 1/3 of that.
I said the PDO and AMO were larger drivers of climate and the effects of the 98 el nino was improperly attributed to anthropogenic CO2 forcing

You can continue to believe I'm ignorant and unlearned, but I assure you, I know the finer points of the science and I build statistical tool applications as a hobby because I love to understand math and science ever more every day.
Oh that's a joke! Oh sure....there's a grand conspiracy of climate scientist to hoodwink the world. Look I appreciate your interest in this subject but my interpretation is that you're drawing conclusion from data that are statistical outliers and that their is, in fact, a broad consensus that global temperatures are rising and human activity is the cause. Considering the staggering volumes of air pollution involved, that's not hard to believe.

But that's fine! Believe what you want but you're missing the forest because of the trees. You're not looking at the interconnectedness of the issue. ACC/AGW is not an issue that exists In Vacuo. So lets look at some facts about pollution and then lets discuss public policy based on these facts.

Lets look at one example of one point source pollution I've been using, coal pollution and let's look at it holistically. We'll even narrow it down to just coal used in the United States. Now, there's no argument that as a fuel source coal is extraordinarily dirty as compared to other sources of fuel. There is also no argument that we use vast quantities of coal.

We use nearly 1 billion tons of coal each year in the US. For each ton of coal combusted nearly 3 tons of air pollution is created (CO2, CO, Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrous Oxides and inorganic bearing particulates for the most part). Now the combustion of coal represents about 40% of the electricity generated in the US. It also represents 75% of the air pollution emitted from power generation in the US.

Now this extraordinary quantity of pollution has a number of areas that impact public policy. They are;

Global warming
Human Health and safety
Ecological degradation
Damage to infrastructure

Now, just for the sake of argument let's toss out global warming. Let's say that you, Tom and Super Stupid are right and the 97.1% of climate scientist are wrong. So we won't even consider AGW from a policy stand point where the pollution from coal consumption is concerned.

As I said before, coal represents only 40% of electrical production but contributes 75% of the air pollution from electrical production. What are the consequences of that?

We know that globally air pollution, of which the burning of coal is major single point source pollutant, cuts short the lives of 2 million people annually and that it adversely impacts the health and wellness and quality of life for many millions more. This fact has a scientific consensus too.

We know that not only does the combustion of coal have an adverse impact in degrading our ecology and human habitation. So does the mining of coal. There's a scientific consensus on that too.

We know that the damage done to our private and public infrastructure from the air pollution from the combustion of coal is in the many billions of dollars annually. Mainly from the corrosion of steel structures. There's a scientific consensus on that too.

So those are facts and I doubt that you're going to dispute those facts. Now, we also know that we also have available vast quantities of natural gas that recent advances in technology has made available to us. If we were to convert completely to natural gas for electrical generation we would cut air pollution emissions for electrical production in half. Just by switching to natural gas. That doesn't include other developing technology, such as solar, wind, nuclear, fuel cell/hydrogen power which are even cleaner than natural gas and emit far less air pollution.

Would that be worth that switch based on the gains to public health, ecological preservation/coservation and preventing the damage to national infrastructure?

Hell yes it is and that's the direction we've been heading for the last 30 years. In the last thirty years the annual electrical production from coal has dropped by nearly 50%.

Now let's assume that you and Tom and Super Stupid are wrong on AGW and that the 97.1% of Climate Scientist are right. Does this add to the incentive to lower our pollution footprint? Hell yes it does. Does that change if you, Tom and Super Stupid are right? No, it does not. As I just described we still very much have very large incentives to diminish your pollution footprint, including carbon.

And that's what I mean by you're missing the forest because of the trees and not seeing the interconnectedness of the AGW issue. Whether you believe in it or not.
 
Oh that's a joke! Oh sure....there's a grand conspiracy of climate scientist to hoodwink the world. Look I appreciate your interest in this subject but my interpretation is that you're drawing conclusion from data that are statistical outliers and that their is, in fact, a broad consensus that global temperatures are rising and human activity is the cause. Considering the staggering volumes of air pollution involved, that's not hard to believe.

But that's fine! Believe what you want but you're missing the forest because of the trees. You're not looking at the interconnectedness of the issue. ACC/AGW is not an issue that exists In Vacuo. So lets look at some facts about pollution and then lets discuss public policy based on these facts.

Lets look at one example of one point source pollution I've been using, coal pollution and let's look at it holistically. We'll even narrow it down to just coal used in the United States. Now, there's no argument that as a fuel source coal is extraordinarily dirty as compared to other sources of fuel. There is also no argument that we use vast quantities of coal.

We use nearly 1 billion tons of coal each year in the US. For each ton of coal combusted nearly 3 tons of air pollution is created (CO2, CO, Sulfur Dioxide, Nitrous Oxides and inorganic bearing particulates for the most part). Now the combustion of coal represents about 40% of the electricity generated in the US. It also represents 75% of the air pollution emitted from power generation in the US.

Now this extraordinary quantity of pollution has a number of areas that impact public policy. They are;

Global warming
Human Health and safety
Ecological degradation
Damage to infrastructure

Now, just for the sake of argument let's toss out global warming. Let's say that you, Tom and Super Stupid are right and the 97.1% of climate scientist are wrong. So we won't even consider AGW from a policy stand point where the pollution from coal consumption is concerned.

As I said before, coal represents only 40% of electrical production but contributes 75% of the air pollution from electrical production. What are the consequences of that?

We know that globally air pollution, of which the burning of coal is major single point source pollutant, cuts short the lives of 2 million people annually and that it adversely impacts the health and wellness and quality of life for many millions more. This fact has a scientific consensus too.

We know that not only does the combustion of coal have an adverse impact in degrading our ecology and human habitation. So does the mining of coal. There's a scientific consensus on that too.

We know that the damage done to our private and public infrastructure from the air pollution from the combustion of coal is in the many billions of dollars annually. Mainly from the corrosion of steel structures. There's a scientific consensus on that too.

So those are facts and I doubt that you're going to dispute those facts. Now, we also know that we also have available vast quantities of natural gas that recent advances in technology has made available to us. If we were to convert completely to natural gas for electrical generation we would cut air pollution emissions for electrical production in half. Just by switching to natural gas. That doesn't include other developing technology, such as solar, wind, nuclear, fuel cell/hydrogen power which are even cleaner than natural gas and emit far less air pollution.

Would that be worth that switch based on the gains to public health, ecological preservation/coservation and preventing the damage to national infrastructure?

Hell yes it is and that's the direction we've been heading for the last 30 years. In the last thirty years the annual electrical production from coal has dropped by nearly 50%.

Now let's assume that you and Tom and Super Stupid are wrong on AGW and that the 97.1% of Climate Scientist are right. Does this add to the incentive to lower our pollution footprint? Hell yes it does. Does that change if you, Tom and Super Stupid are right? No, it does not. As I just described we still very much have very large incentives to diminish your pollution footprint, including carbon.

And that's what I mean by you're missing the forest because of the trees and not seeing the interconnectedness of the AGW issue. Whether you believe in it or not.

Holy crap Mott, I have been saying for ages that one of the answers to pollution is use fracked gas for power stations, as an interim solution along with nuclear and renewables, until other solutions like thorium reactors and fusion become feasible. Now maybe you could address the 17 year halt in global warming which you have been studiously avoiding.
 
Holy crap Mott, I have been saying for ages that one of the answers to pollution is use fracked gas for power stations, as an interim solution along with nuclear and renewables, until other solutions like thorium reactors and fusion become feasible. Now maybe you could address the 17 year halt in global warming which you have been studiously avoiding.
I haven't been avoiding it. I think the data you are citing is biased and wrong. What's to address? I just don't want to get into a pissing contest about it. You site your sources and I'll site mine. Whoop de fucking do. What does that prove.

Do you want to discuss policy decisions about AGW or do you want to defend fringe data?
 
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Originally Posted by Superfreak
Questions for Mutt the scientist to answer... just putting them all in one post...

If MAN is the primary driver of climate change AND CO2 is the greenhouse gas they blame the most for warming, then explain HOW the earth has not continued getting warmer for the better part of two DECADES, despite continuing increases in CO2 emissions?

Do you deny that the scientists promoting the AGW theory have a vested interest in it? Do they not receive funding because they present a case for alarm?

If they came out and said, 'man is having an effect on the climate change, but it is not substantial'... what would happen to their government funding Mutt?

Funny how Mutt returned... but still failed to live up to his word and answer the questions above.

Yeah, and big pharma is hiding the cure to cancer. You are a nut.
 
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