Until our leaders admit the true nature of Islamic extremes, we will never defeat it

[Airstrip One]

Another stupid statement by 3D!

So, we didn't invade Afghanistan immediately after 9/11?

 

[The Dude]

I think it is simplistic in the extreme to take the sum total of muslim terrorism and distill it into Iraq. It completely absolves them of their past. As I said, history is littered with muslim terrorism going back well before Iraq. Those are just facts.

Was Iraq a travesty? Yup.
You are a complete moron


Iraq is used as an excuse to hide their larger goals. it is used to guilt the gullible into looking the other way when they commit their heinous acts and it is working

We killed hundreds of thousands of innocents and soldiers. Fuck you crusader

 

[blackascoal]

infastructure in Iraq is in better shape than it was before we invaded. And the 9/11 attackers were Saudi and Egyptian. Weve never invaded their countries.

That's ridiculously mindless.

Iraq is now in complete chaos .. as is Libya.

Iraq: A country in shambles
Despite promises made for improvements, Iraq's economy and infrastructure are still a disaster.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/01/20121411519385348.html

Hundreds killed in upsurge of terror bombings, sectarian attacks in Iraq
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/05/22/iraq-m22.html

The idiocy of our cowboy foreign policy isn't just bad for Muslims, it's devastating to us as well.

Estimated lost economic value of America's war dead: $44.6 Billion

The military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, considered together, will be the most expensive war in American history. There are many ways to tally the costs. The price tag is estimated by Linda J. Bilmes of the Harvard Kennedy School to total somewhere between four and six trillion dollars. The decision to finance the wars almost entirely through borrowing has already added more than 1.3 trillion dollars to the national debt. And then there’s the direct human cost: more than six thousand soldiers have died, and up to another six thousand contractors.

At the intersection of the enormous economic costs and the incalculable human price of the war is figure that is even more difficult to contemplate: the estimated lost economic value of America’s war dead. Bilmes puts it at 44.6 billion dollars, calculated by using a midrange figure from various government agencies’ estimates of the “value of a statistical life.” In that accounting, a single life is worth a little over seven million dollars, a number that far exceeds the hundred-thousand-dollar death gratuity that the Department of Defense pays to the survivors of those killed while on active duty. If anything, it’s a low estimate, one that doesn’t include the associated costs of family members having to alter careers and lives.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/05/the-number-446-billion.html

 

[The Dude]

So, we're not purchasing their oil?

No we aren't

 

[blackascoal]

I think it is simplistic in the extreme to take the sum total of muslim terrorism and distill it into Iraq. It completely absolves them of their past. As I said, history is littered with muslim terrorism going back well before Iraq. Those are just facts.

Was Iraq a travesty? Yup.

Iraq is used as an excuse to hide their larger goals. it is used to guilt the gullible into looking the other way when they commit their heinous acts and it is working

I think it mindless to believe that there would be no consequences from mass-murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people just because we could.

We did the exact same thing in Libya.

Yet, you attest no blame, no consequence, to the horror shows that we create for profit.

You seem to forget that history is also littered with horrors from so-called christian nations as well .. but history has little to do with what the world is witnessing today.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

I think it mindless to believe that there would be no consequences from mass-murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people just because we could.

We did the exact same thing in Libya.

Yet, you attest no blame, no consequence, to the horror shows that we create for profit.

You seem to forget that history is also littered with horrors from so-called christian nations as well .. but history has little to do with what the world is witnessing today.

I am not saying that at all. I am merely saying that the sum total of muslim extremism cannot be laid at the feet of Iraq regardless how badly it was botched. That is all I am saying. There is a longer, deeper history rooted in the ideology of Islam itself and people ignore that at their own peril

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I'm not giving a pass to anyone .. but it isn't Islamists invading and destroying oil-rich nations for resources .. or western nations .. while mass-murdering countless people all over the world.

As fucked as some societies may be, it is incumbent upon the people of those societies to alter that course through whatever means necessary .. just as it was incumbent upon Americans to right to course of our own fucked up society that denied its citizens basic human rights.

That's true and that's what this discussion is about. There's not a reasonable person here who doesn't reject western colonialism/imperialism nor who don't see it as a legitimate source of resentment towards the west by the ME.....but you're mistaken if you think it's the major cause or source of extremism within the ME. The reaction of their own internal ruling elites to the nations involved in the Arab spring adequatly demonstrate this fact.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

If we want to talk about extremists .. we should be looking in the mirror.

True dat but we don't have the historical obstacles to reform that much of the third world has.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Mott you don't think ancient crusades or bush crusade is a good reason for western hatred!

OH absolutely they are but they are a secondary cause of extremism in the ME and not the primary cause, which is the point I am making. Modernize these nations social structures to include political, social, land and economic reforms that provide everyday people with grass roots ability to govern their own communities in the broadest interest of those communties, not just the landed and monied elites, and provide them real representation and power in government and with the improved quality of life that would promote then extremism in those nations would drop preciptately.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Iraq.

How many innocent muslims/people did we mass-murder in that horror show?

Just slaughtered them because we could.

BAC, see post # 4.

 

[iolo]

That's true and that's what this discussion is about. There's not a reasonable person here who doesn't reject western colonialism nor who don't see it as a legitimate source of resentment towards the west by the ME.....but you're mistaken if you think it's the major cause or source of extremism within the ME. The reaction of their own internal ruling elites to the nations involved in the Arab spring adequatly demonstrate this fact.

'Internal' élites? Come ON! These are American colonies, man!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Hundreds of thousands, had England done that to us there would be no USA

Not true but it would have been a hell of a lot uglier, cost a lot more people their lives and took a lot longer.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

We just slaughtered them like sheep, destroyed their infrastructure and society .. then acted as if nothing had happened.

Why oh why do muslims hate us?

Stupid

....and that's legit but as I stated previously, our policies towards the ME could be completely ultruistic, pristine and pure and there would still be plenty of extremism in the ME with much resentment towards the west.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

So, we didn't invade Afghanistan immediately after 9/11?

Yes we did and we did so legitimately as the Talibans protection and patronage of Al Qaeda represented a clear and present danger to our national security so spare me the nonsense.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

We killed hundreds of thousands of innocents and soldiers. Fuck you crusader

Again, see post # 4. You're wasting your time even commenting to the nitwit.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

'Internal' élites? Come ON! These are American colonies, man!

What? Could you quit speakng jibberish. You're starting to sound like 3D!

 

[canceled.2021.1]

OH absolutely they are but they are a secondary cause of extremism in the ME and not the primary cause, which is the point I am making. Modernize these nations social structures to include political, social, land and economic reforms that provide everyday people with grass roots ability to govern their own communities in the broadest interest of those communties, not just the landed and monied elites, and provide them real representation and power in government and with the improved quality of life that would promote then extremism in those nations would drop preciptately.

When are you going over to get the process started? I am sure you can get some like minded folks from this forum to join you. Hell, I will spring for your plane tickets. Just let me know

 

[blackascoal]

That's true and that's what this discussion is about. There's not a reasonable person here who doesn't reject western colonialism nor who don't see it as a legitimate source of resentment towards the west by the ME.....but you're mistaken if you think it's the major cause or source of extremism within the ME. The reaction of their own internal ruling elites to the nations involved in the Arab spring adequatly demonstrate this fact.

I don't ignore the historical tribalism that exists within the ME .. but you can't ignore that we stirred that pot and have used it to our 'advantage' for conquest .. AND, out blind position on Israel puts us at odds with much of the world, not just the ME.

One can hardly have a sane discussion about sectarian violence in the ME without the conversation about how badly we've played it, how much we contribute to the violence that has spread globally, and the absolute failure of the 'war on terror.'

 

[iolo]

What? Could you quit speakng jibberish. You're starting to sound like 3D!

Do the countries you attacked have free choice of policy? Come ON - you are not that stupid, surely?

 

[blackascoal]

....and that's legit but as I stated previously, our policies towards the ME could be completely ultruistic, pristine and pure and there would still be plenty of extremism in the ME with much resentment towards the west.

.. and they would be left to solve their own problems .. just as we have.

Our policy was never completely altruistic, pristine and pure .. we mass-murdered countless innocent Muslims/people for oil.

That isn't just an aside.