More Indoctrination

Professor Baxter said:
Obviously, prayer respects an establishment of religion.

But your question is dishonest and intended to exploit ignorance. One can pray in school. It simply can't seem to be endorsed by the state through state employees and use of state property.

Why don't you actually read the legal opinions?
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How, the religion has already been established, it's not new, to suppress it is against the constitution

Wrong, most of the major religions pray, why can't it be supported a teacher it is not establishing a religious theocracy
 
Professor Baxter said:
It does not say anything about abortion though it does not appear that it would be considered murder, as most pro life nuts argue.

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

It treats the baby and mother as property of the father/husband.
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No where does it state the miscarried child died!
 
Rana said:
So, telling people they are going to hell is unrighteousness, thanks this is what I have always thought as well.
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telling people they are going to hell is judgmental and something we are directed not to do in scripture....telling them they are incredibly stupid is not......that is instructional.......
 
Professor Baxter said:
It does not say anything about abortion though it does not appear that it would be considered murder, as most pro life nuts argue.

And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)

It treats the baby and mother as property of the father/husband.
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one of the errors that can arise when seculars pretend they actually know what the scriptures say......the actual translation of Exodus 21
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
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http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+21&version=NIV

and lest you pretend its a difference in translation, the NAS (which you cited) also translates it as prematurely rather than miscarriage......
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021&version=NASB
 
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patriot66 said:
No where does it state the miscarried child died!
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No where does it say it didn't either.... the bottom line is that even biblically, an unborn life does not have the same value as a living breathing person.

Look up the word miscarry.... it does not mean "born prematurely".

Look....I think abortion is wrong. If I were a woman, it would not be an option for me....I would strongly discourage my daughter from making that choice. However, my daughter will be 20 years old on the 20th....so my words of discouragement only goes so far. There comes a time when adult decisions have adult consequences. I don't have to live with the inevitable feelings if guilt and a profound sense of "what if?". Those are the consequences of abortion.

If you believe that anyone who has made that decision doesn't deal with those feelings, you're nuts. Oh...they may act flippant on the outside, but they have them nonetheless.....and even if they don't happen to right now, they have the rest of their lives to think about it.

God will forgive them if they ask... I'm not worried about their souls....nor am I worried about the souls of the innocent. God will take care of them.

In short, it is a woman's decision to make. Personally.... I'd like our men to step the hell up to the plate. Make a deal with the mother and say "look....if you don't want the child, fine.... carry it and after it's born, you'll never have to see it again"....but they don't do that very often...do they? They go off on their own, bitch about child support and if they see the kid at all....it's every other weekend while Mom's dealing with them the other 12 days of the period.

Seems to me this whole "pro-life" argument us based on punishing women who have sex than it is about protecting innocent life.... because all I see when we talk about this subject is folks calling women sluts(either directly, or implied)... and nothing aimed at the "gentlemen" who impregnated them.

That's called misogyny people.
 
Steelplate said:
the bottom line is that even biblically, an unborn life does not have the same value as a living breathing person
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can you document that?......the Bible says that God takes a hand in our lives from the point in time that he knit us in our mother's womb......it doesn't then say he didn't give a further shit about us until we started breathing.......
 
Steelplate said:
Seems to me this whole "pro-life" argument us based on punishing women who have sex than it is about protecting innocent life.....
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you see, this is where that part about pointing at something and saying "Look!.....something stupid!" comes into play......you think we shouldn't protect an innocent life because someone might think it is punishing women who have sex........every day millions of women have sex....we don't do anything to prevent that or even say we should....in fact, in the majority of cases men are joining them in doing it........we do, however, think someone ought to say "Hey, don't kill your children!".....so which are we doing?.....punishing women for having sex or protecting innocent life?......
 
patriot66 said:
No where does it state the miscarried child died!
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Miscarriage. Assuming they translated the word properly they were not talking about fetus that survived. But do your dishonest intellectual gymnastics to defend your book of immorality if you want.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
are you going back to the days when science had no understanding of what pregnancy even was?......if so you've got the wrong candidate for "full retard".....
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They understood what it was. Aquinas argued that ensoulment did not occur until the quickening and that abortion prior to that, while sinful, was not murder.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
can you document that?......the Bible says that God takes a hand in our lives from the point in time that he knit us in our mother's womb......it doesn't then say he didn't give a further shit about us until we started breathing.......
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The bible also say multiple times "better that person had never been born"

We can quibble about this all day long. It doesn't matter. I believe that God knows more than you give him credit for. He knows what's going on in the soul of a person who is making that decision. He knows the remorse that person feels after she did it. She prays alone to God for forgiveness....she doesn't need your admonition and neither does God.

Why can't you live your life and let others live theirs? Maybe God's plan for them isn't the same as his plan for you. Maybe God is teaching her a lesson that is 10-20 years in the making....you don't know...and neither do I.

All I know is that I cannot righteously judge a person for a single act of immorality when I have no idea what that person is going through.
 
patriot66 said:
So telling people the truth about where they will spend eternity unless they repent is not genuine? What should I say then hey don't do that, I can't tell you why it's wrong, or what the consequences are, but don't do it, spare me. If I am trying to spare them eternity in hell I would say that is love. I know i am a sinner, and without the blood of Christ to cover my sins I am condemned. That is the difference, I am covered, and want others to be also.
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You are pompous, sorry, that is how you come across here. I do not know how you are in real life, but your attitude here is not helpful. It is judgemental and pompous.
 
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patriot66 said:
So telling people the truth about where they will spend eternity unless they repent is not genuine? What should I say then hey don't do that, I can't tell you why it's wrong, or what the consequences are, but don't do it, spare me. If I am trying to spare them eternity in hell I would say that is love. I know i am a sinner, and without the blood of Christ to cover my sins I am condemned. That is the difference, I am covered, and want others to be also.
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How do you know where someone will spend eternity? Are you God? Do you know what people pray for in private? Why are you so positive that others are not covered too? Actions are misleading.... we all break God's rules. I'd be willing to bet you've committed adultery on many occasions.

If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. I know I'm guilty. And it's something that I just can't "turn off"....so therefore.... I have not repented....because if one repents...they don't commit that sin anymore....so tell me brother.... if that's the case....we are all going to spend eternity in hell....

Greed....avarice...envy....those are soul damning sins too....however....you guys seem to think that only the sins that start between one's legs carry any weight....you are deluding yourself.

So...tell me...have you really repented of all your sins?
 
Professor Baxter said:
Obviously, prayer respects an establishment of religion.

But your question is dishonest and intended to exploit ignorance. One can pray in school. It simply can't seem to be endorsed by the state through state employees and use of state property.

Why don't you actually read the legal opinions?
Click to expand...

Your initial premise is flawed; because prayer respects the ESTABLISHED religion, not the ESTABLISHMENT of the religion.

The Government making everyone adhere to the pricipals of a religion, would be an action
ESTABLISHING a religion.
 
Steelplate said:
How do you know where someone will spend eternity? Are you God? Do you know what people pray for in private? Why are you so positive that others are not covered too? Actions are misleading.... we all break God's rules. I'd be willing to bet you've committed adultery on many occasions.

If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. I know I'm guilty. And it's something that I just can't "turn off"....so therefore.... I have not repented....because if one repents...they don't commit that sin anymore....so tell me brother.... if that's the case....we are all going to spend eternity in hell....

Greed....avarice...envy....those are soul damning sins too....however....you guys seem to think that only the sins that start between one's legs carry any weight....you are deluding yourself.

So...tell me...have you really repented of all your sins?
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God made no more beautiful creature than woman. I confess my sins to God Daily and ask forgiveness. All sins are equal in God's eyes, no doubt but to not tell someone the truth is as bad a lying to them. My awesome relationship with my wife keeps my eyes on her and I thank God, because we as men are wired to be conquerors and there is always the next conquest, but when your relationship is focused on mutual admiration of God, and one another, it can be overcome.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Your initial premise is flawed; because prayer respects the ESTABLISHED religion, not the ESTABLISHMENT of the religion.

The Government making everyone adhere to the pricipals of a religion, would be an action
ESTABLISHING a religion.
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Your premise is flawed and based on ignorance of what the establishment clause means. If it "respects the ESTABLISHED religion" then it is prohibited. Establishment is a noun. The clause does not simply prohibit the act of establishing a religion.
 
Professor Baxter said:
Miscarriage. Assuming they translated the word properly they were not talking about fetus that survived. But do your dishonest intellectual gymnastics to defend your book of immorality if you want.
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wait a minute.....I've already shown you misrepresented what the Bible said.....are you going to double down on your dishonesty without even responding to me?......
 
Professor Baxter said:
Yeah, look at the footnote, moron.
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I would think the moron would be the one who chose the least common interpretation and pretended it supported his own "dishonest intellectual gymnastics"......the issue is what does the Bible say about abortion, not what some purported alternative translation that the Bible did not use might say about it........another atheist thread fail.....
 
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