Honest question for Confederate flag lovers: Why are you so proud of losing?

What is it about the same nonsense about state's rights from people living today as if somehow they knew the whys. Remove slavery from the picture and there is no confederate flag.


'The usual tired apology for slavery, aka State's Rights.' by Edward Ball

[...]

"But a look through the declaration of causes written by South Carolina and four of the 10 states that followed it out of the Union — which, taken together, paint a kind of self-portrait of the Confederacy — reveals a different story. From Georgia to Texas, each state said the reason it was getting out was that the awful Northern states were threatening to do away with slavery.

South Carolina: “The non-slaveholding states ... have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery” and “have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes.”

Mississippi: “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. ... There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union.”

Georgia: “A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia.”

Several states single out a special culprit, Abraham Lincoln, “an obscure and illiterate man” whose “opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery.” Lincoln’s election to the White House meant, for South Carolina, that “the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.”

In other words, the only state right the Confederate founders were interested in was the rich man’s “right” to own slaves.

It’s peculiar, because “states’ rights” has become a popular refrain in Republican circles lately. Last year Gov. Rick Perry of Texas wondered aloud whether secession was his state’s right in the aftermath of laws out of Congress that he disliked.

In part because of this renewed rhetoric, in the coming remembrances we will likely hear more from folks who cling to the whitewash explanation for secession and the Civil War. But you have only to look at the honest words of the secessionists to see why all those men put on uniforms." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/opinion/19Ball.html

"Her conclusion is that the Americans who fought the Civil War overwhelmingly thought they were fighting about slavery, and that we should take their word for it." AmericanHeritage.com / Why the Civil War Was Fought, Really

Court ruling on secession: Texas v. White

Admission of state to union: FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article IV: Annotations pg. 16 of 18


Southern Arguments for and Against Secession from the Union - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com
Agrument v Lincoln's position: http://apollo3.com/~jameso/secession.html
Does constitution allow secession: FindLaw's Writ - Dorf: Does the Constitution Permit the Blue States to Secede?

AmericanHeritage.com / How the North Lost the Civil War
 
Skeleton Jelly said:
yeah, states rights to own slaves.

You didn't answer my question though, why are you and others so proud of losing? Why do you shout from the rooftops that you were on the losing team? Doesn't it bother you at all, that in spite of your bravado, that the north can pretty much curb stomp you? how do you like the fact that all the wimpy liberals shoved your faces in the dirt?

Seriously, just curious.
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States rights to own personal property of any kind. That's the part you fail to get. Your government had gone on record to say that slaves were property, the people who owned slaves in the South did not do that, it was your government and your government's Supreme Court, who had ruled as a matter of law, that slaves belonged to their slave owners and were personal property. Therefore, the taking away of their slaves is undue confiscation of property, forbidden by the 4th amendment. Again, the CSA did not make this ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States of America, is who determined this. Who's "FAULT" was this?

It's wrong to look at this post-facto, and pretend that SCOTUS had ruled in all the various Civil Rights cases since 1964, following specific legislation to demand Civil Rights.... but in 1861, that was not the US we lived in. The Law did not grant Civil Rights for black people, we still needed to 'evolve' another century before that happened. But what you and others like to do, for some odd reason, is to pretend that we had already 'evolved' and The North was this enlightened bastion of liberals who recognized Civil Rights, while The South was a bunch of racist whites who wanted to keep black people in chains. YOUR country upheld the institution for 86 years before the CSA ever existed. Repeatedly, YOUR high court ruled that slaves were not people, but property. The South did not do this, and couldn't have done it all on their own, it's impossible.

Now on to your question about the Confederate flag. I can't speak for why other people display the flag, I believe people are all different and have different motivations, and they don't generally conform to some stereotype contrived in a bigoted mind, like you believe. Some people certainly use the flag as a symbol of hate and racism. The Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy has always denounced such usage of the flag, and continues to do so. The flag has absolutely NOTHING to do with racism.

I began studying about the Confederacy when I was 8 years old, because I have two relatives who fought in the war and are buried in Confederate cemeteries. One thing that surprised me was the relatively small number of Confederate military were also slave owners. There were some Generals who owned plantations, and there were some other officers as well, who were either slave owners, or sons of slave owners. But the CSA, as well as the US, had a standing policy regarding service, whereby "the wealthy" or people who owned plantations and slaves and such, were able to send someone in their proxy, or in their son's proxy, to fight in the infantry. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that any Confederate soldier who was not an officer, owned ANY slaves. Over 100k died, and none of them were slave owners. That's amazing, since according to you, they were supposedly fighting for slavery.

Most of the Confederate soldiers who died, were more like my relatives. Poor dirt farmers who were shunned by white society as "half-breeds" or "coloreds" just trying to earn a living and get by, they didn't even know anyone who owned slaves. If they did, it was likely someone who they had to compete against as farmers. Virtually every Confederate soldier was there to fight for the Southern Cause of Independence. The war ONLY became "about slavery" when Lincoln MADE it "about slavery" following a series of military defeats which had the US reeling, and the people questioning the wisdom of a war. Before that, the war was about property and property rights, and whether the Federal government could violate their own Constitution.

The word "Confederate" is important, because it signifies a distinction in the understanding of how government should work. Up until the CW, most everyone assumed we were a "confederation" of states, operating together under a "federal" government, which was severely restricted in power and authority. But Lincoln and others were pushing for unprecedented "federal" powers and authority, and THIS was "the cause" of The South, hence the name, "Confederate. States of America." This doesn't have a single solitary thing to do with sentiments toward equality of race. NOTHING!
 
Dixie said:
States rights to own personal property of any kind. That's the part you fail to get. Your government had gone on record to say that slaves were property, the people who owned slaves in the South did not do that, it was your government and your government's Supreme Court, who had ruled as a matter of law, that slaves belonged to their slave owners and were personal property. Therefore, the taking away of their slaves is undue confiscation of property, forbidden by the 4th amendment. Again, the CSA did not make this ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States of America, is who determined this. Who's "FAULT" was this?

It's wrong to look at this post-facto, and pretend that SCOTUS had ruled in all the various Civil Rights cases since 1964, following specific legislation to demand Civil Rights.... but in 1861, that was not the US we lived in. The Law did not grant Civil Rights for black people, we still needed to 'evolve' another century before that happened. But what you and others like to do, for some odd reason, is to pretend that we had already 'evolved' and The North was this enlightened bastion of liberals who recognized Civil Rights, while The South was a bunch of racist whites who wanted to keep black people in chains. YOUR country upheld the institution for 86 years before the CSA ever existed. Repeatedly, YOUR high court ruled that slaves were not people, but property. The South did not do this, and couldn't have done it all on their own, it's impossible.

Now on to your question about the Confederate flag. I can't speak for why other people display the flag, I believe people are all different and have different motivations, and they don't generally conform to some stereotype contrived in a bigoted mind, like you believe. Some people certainly use the flag as a symbol of hate and racism. The Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy has always denounced such usage of the flag, and continues to do so. The flag has absolutely NOTHING to do with racism.

I began studying about the Confederacy when I was 8 years old, because I have two relatives who fought in the war and are buried in Confederate cemeteries. One thing that surprised me was the relatively small number of Confederate military were also slave owners. There were some Generals who owned plantations, and there were some other officers as well, who were either slave owners, or sons of slave owners. But the CSA, as well as the US, had a standing policy regarding service, whereby "the wealthy" or people who owned plantations and slaves and such, were able to send someone in their proxy, or in their son's proxy, to fight in the infantry. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that any Confederate soldier who was not an officer, owned ANY slaves. Over 100k died, and none of them were slave owners. That's amazing, since according to you, they were supposedly fighting for slavery.

Most of the Confederate soldiers who died, were more like my relatives. Poor dirt farmers who were shunned by white society as "half-breeds" or "coloreds" just trying to earn a living and get by, they didn't even know anyone who owned slaves. If they did, it was likely someone who they had to compete against as farmers. Virtually every Confederate soldier was there to fight for the Southern Cause of Independence. The war ONLY became "about slavery" when Lincoln MADE it "about slavery" following a series of military defeats which had the US reeling, and the people questioning the wisdom of a war. Before that, the war was about property and property rights, and whether the Federal government could violate their own Constitution.

The word "Confederate" is important, because it signifies a distinction in the understanding of how government should work. Up until the CW, most everyone assumed we were a "confederation" of states, operating together under a "federal" government, which was severely restricted in power and authority. But Lincoln and others were pushing for unprecedented "federal" powers and authority, and THIS was "the cause" of The South, hence the name, "Confederate. States of America." This doesn't have a single solitary thing to do with sentiments toward equality of race. NOTHING!
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Dixie said:
States rights to own personal property of any kind. That's the part you fail to get. Your government had gone on record to say that slaves were property, the people who owned slaves in the South did not do that, it was your government and your government's Supreme Court, who had ruled as a matter of law, that slaves belonged to their slave owners and were personal property. Therefore, the taking away of their slaves is undue confiscation of property, forbidden by the 4th amendment. Again, the CSA did not make this ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States of America, is who determined this. Who's "FAULT" was this?

It's wrong to look at this post-facto, and pretend that SCOTUS had ruled in all the various Civil Rights cases since 1964, following specific legislation to demand Civil Rights.... but in 1861, that was not the US we lived in. The Law did not grant Civil Rights for black people, we still needed to 'evolve' another century before that happened. But what you and others like to do, for some odd reason, is to pretend that we had already 'evolved' and The North was this enlightened bastion of liberals who recognized Civil Rights, while The South was a bunch of racist whites who wanted to keep black people in chains. YOUR country upheld the institution for 86 years before the CSA ever existed. Repeatedly, YOUR high court ruled that slaves were not people, but property. The South did not do this, and couldn't have done it all on their own, it's impossible.

Now on to your question about the Confederate flag. I can't speak for why other people display the flag, I believe people are all different and have different motivations, and they don't generally conform to some stereotype contrived in a bigoted mind, like you believe. Some people certainly use the flag as a symbol of hate and racism. The Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy has always denounced such usage of the flag, and continues to do so. The flag has absolutely NOTHING to do with racism.

I began studying about the Confederacy when I was 8 years old, because I have two relatives who fought in the war and are buried in Confederate cemeteries. One thing that surprised me was the relatively small number of Confederate military were also slave owners. There were some Generals who owned plantations, and there were some other officers as well, who were either slave owners, or sons of slave owners. But the CSA, as well as the US, had a standing policy regarding service, whereby "the wealthy" or people who owned plantations and slaves and such, were able to send someone in their proxy, or in their son's proxy, to fight in the infantry. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that any Confederate soldier who was not an officer, owned ANY slaves. Over 100k died, and none of them were slave owners. That's amazing, since according to you, they were supposedly fighting for slavery.

Most of the Confederate soldiers who died, were more like my relatives. Poor dirt farmers who were shunned by white society as "half-breeds" or "coloreds" just trying to earn a living and get by, they didn't even know anyone who owned slaves. If they did, it was likely someone who they had to compete against as farmers. Virtually every Confederate soldier was there to fight for the Southern Cause of Independence. The war ONLY became "about slavery" when Lincoln MADE it "about slavery" following a series of military defeats which had the US reeling, and the people questioning the wisdom of a war. Before that, the war was about property and property rights, and whether the Federal government could violate their own Constitution.

The word "Confederate" is important, because it signifies a distinction in the understanding of how government should work. Up until the CW, most everyone assumed we were a "confederation" of states, operating together under a "federal" government, which was severely restricted in power and authority. But Lincoln and others were pushing for unprecedented "federal" powers and authority, and THIS was "the cause" of The South, hence the name, "Confederate. States of America." This doesn't have a single solitary thing to do with sentiments toward equality of race. NOTHING!
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It is very telling where your alegence and hart is when you call the USA, "your" government instead of "our" government.

That being said, what you wrote is mostly true, althought the issue was property rights, for the most part that property was Human Beings. To the South, the right to own a human being was more important than remaining a part of the USA. There are some issues where individual rights, such as certian forms of property rights are more important than a squable over whether we were a Federation of States or a Confederaton of States.

The United States in 1862 had outgrown a Constitution that allowed for ownership of certian classes of people, that is all of the United States save the South. We had to fight a war over the issue, and won... then we changed the constitution to fit the nation that was born after Lee surrendered.
 
Dixie said:
States rights to own personal property of any kind.
including slaves
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This doesn't have a single solitary thing to do with sentiments toward equality of race. NOTHING!
Click to expand...

it has as little to do with race as the nazi swastika has to do with killing jews. your cognitive dissonance is off the charts.
 
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